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21 sats \ 1 reply \ @fiatbad 1 Nov \ parent \ on: Steak ’n Shake Launches First-Ever Strategic Bitcoin Reserve bitcoin
I've come to believe there's a serious education problem among Bitcoiners. They don't seem to have much of a desire to "fuck banks".
Number-Go-Up is all that seems to matter.
Eventually, we have to prioritize bank fucking, otherwise number will stop going up.
I was there a year ago, and I was impressed with how easy it was to spend Bitcoin. The employees appeared to be well trained, and they didn't roll their eyes or get flustered when I asked to pay with Bitcoin. It was SO refreshing.
The only downside was, almost no merchants actually accept Bitcoin. The ones that do, seem to do it correctly and with pleasure. But only 1 out of 1,000 businesses actually took it. Which is contrary to what I keep hearing about how great merchant adoption is there.
But, that was a year ago. Maybe it's improving.
It's worth asking how long this can go on for without the whole thing collapsing.
This is my greatest fear. If Bitcoin's use-case continues to be 99% about SoV, then why wouldn't gold win that war? Bitcoin is better than gold, because it can do so much more. But if no one is using it for that "so much more", then who really cares?
I hate gold. But it's starting to look more attractive, the more I see Bitcoin NOT being used the way Bitcoiners say it should be.
Yea, I understand that we can't do it as simply as I imply in my comments. I understand there will be friction, and creativity must be applied. But there is much more they could be doing to trend toward the future we all claim to want.
My complaint is that Bitcoiners don't appear to be trying at all. They seem fine with the current state of fiat dominance (they talk like they aren't, but their actions show they are).
I agree.
But I also have a lot of experience helping merchants set up Bitcoin POS systems and putting them on BTCmap.org. What I've discovered is really sad, actually.
I've seen SO MANY Bitcoiners go to a merchant on BTCmap, but STILL end up paying with fiat. A shameful amount.
I've seen so many LN payments fail due to some kind of technical or liquidity issue.
I've seen so many employees get angry about Bitcoin being an option, because they have to learn to use a different system and then only use it once per year! What gets repeated, gets remembered. Bitcoin just pisses them off.
I've seen so many merchants who are still on BTCmap no longer accepting Bitcoin, due to issues mentioned above.
If the Bitcoin community placed a higher value on ending fiat, and promoting Bitcoin, the problems I mentioned would be quickly solved. LN is better as more people use it. There would be more education and less failures. Employees would use the Bitcoin POS more often, and learn it, so it would no longer annoy them.
Bottom line: Bitcoiners using Bitcoin only as a store-of-value is the problem. If there isn't a large group of people pushing for Bitcoin adoption, merchants aren't going to do it. We need to rally, somehow. We need Bitcoiners to get educated on the evils of fiat, because it seems to me that many of them still don't really get it (ie. this post: #1266726)
That's like flossing one tooth then proclaiming, "I flossed today!".
We use Lightning on SN because the developers didn't even give the option to send fiat. They easily could have implemented a fiat withdrawal option, using Cowboy Credits as the micro-payment rail. I would bet that the "Bitcoiners" on SN would use the fiat+CC system MORE than LN, if the devs had provided such an option.
The same is true in the physical world. It's up to US who develop businesses to stop accepting fiat.... stop even implementing it on our platforms as a payment option. The same way the SN devs have done here, just don't allow fiat. Unfortunately, no one seems to have an appetite for doing the right thing.
:(
I thought I made it clear that I want to learn your perspective. There are probably parts of this that I don't understand. I'm going to offer my perspective, for the sake of conversation. But I was clear that I'm trying to be humble in my position, because there's a lot I don't know.
I know there are a lot of classically trained economists in this territory who can teach me.
So, I wasn't "throwing anything in your face", or trying to be condescending. I'm genuinely trying to learn, and explaining where my current understanding lies, and the books that have taught me.
It's possible I've spent too long reading about how fiat works, and I have a blindspot on the taxes side. That was the point of wanting to debate. I asked you for book recommendations. I want to learn, not be rude, or have others be rude at me.
You can probably teach me something then. I'd love to chat 1-on-1 for a friendly debate.
However, if you haven't read the following books, then I may not be able to get my point of view across very well, and it could be an unproductive debate.
- The Creature from Jekyll Island
- They Own It All (Including You)!: By Means of Toxic Currency
- Both of Alex Gladstein's books
- Confessions of an Economic Hit Man (which I haven't finished yet)
- War is a Racket
Those are the books explaining how evil and nefarious fiat is. Then there are the books explaining how bad fiat is for society, even if you don't believe the "evil" of it. Books like:
- The Price of Tomorrow
- Broken Money
- The Sovereign Individual
And many more.
Taxes can be nefarious, but also make sense if done correctly. They aren't inherently evil, like fiat is. They are a tool which CAN be evil, but aren't on their own. Fiat is evil right out of the gate. Taxes typically provide citizens with goods/services... fiat provides Cantillionaires with extraordinary luxury while decreasing the wealth of the middle class.
I'm sure there are parts I'm missing, and books I haven't read. Maybe you can name some for me to read to learn about the other side of this.
There are a lot of statements in your post, but very little explanation... very little "why".
I want to give your thesis a chance, but your post gives me nothing except "trust me bro".
I know the world would look very different on a hard money standard. Keynesian economics would have to be thrown out of the classroom and replaced with new models. Then, after a few decades of Austrian-like schooling, watching the world run just fine, people will be screaming how stupid it was to think money wasn't a strict measuring stick.
I feel like your thesis only makes sense when you're within the current system. It's perception bias.
I'm open to digging into the details, and changing my mind on it if you have something of substance to offer.
Uh... none of your options work for me.
I've never used Rumble before today. Adding Bitcoin to their platform makes me 100% more likely to use it. In other words, it went from 0% to 100% with this move.
How's that for "how much more likely are you to use Rumble"?
It's still a centralized piece of shit. Nostr will always have my heart.
I can't believe this poll is so close.
Fiat is the obvious answer.
I'm shocked. I'm disappointed.
Now I understand why more Bitcoiners aren't fighting to end fiat. They haven't read the must-read book list, apparently. They simply haven't done their homework, I guess.
I would prefer it not get to violence. However, using history as a guide, I don’t believe it’s possible. I think “The Creature from Jekyll Island” (TCFJI) is only allowing Bitcoin to exist today because Bitcoin is not threatening their system at all. I think they probably orchestrated something in the early days (2015-ish) of Bitcoin to ensure it would remain benign. If and when Bitcoin starts to seriously threaten the fiat system, they will turn this into a real fight.
They won’t attack it directly. They’ll start a global war or something, and use the cover of the war to destroy small Bitcoin communities and node runners.
There are only 3 possible outcomes.
-
Bitcoin remains a KYC’d, “investment”. Digital Gold. It NEVER threatens the fiat system.
-
People start using Bitcoin for trade and daily transactions so much that the fiat system becomes seriously threatened. TCFJI can’t do anything about it because there are so many node runners and hodlers around the globe. Bitcoin pulls off the trojan horse narrative.
-
People start using Bitcoin for trade and daily transactions so much that the fiat system becomes seriously threatened. TCFJI fights back. They have infinite resources, and have been preparing for decades. Bitcoiners are faced with a choice to fight or to lay low and let TCFJI execute their plans, thus continuing to enslave the world.
I think #2 is what Bitcoiners think is going to happen, and I think they’re wrong. Option #1 and #3 are much more likely, in my opinion. Option #2 is naive.
It’s not that I want violence. It’s that I want to see Bitcoiners ready to take it that far if need be. There needs to be a greater distaste for fiat. I’m not saying we should start a rebellion tomorrow. I’d be satisfied if I just saw more of an effort to STOP using fiat, even if it means being seriously inconvenienced or jailed.
I don’t want to see violence, but I’d like to see a sense of urgency which I feel is non-existent in the current culture.
We have to win hearts and minds and central bankers/the PTB don't have our best interests in mind.
My thoughts exactly. Yet, I get strong resistance from this community.
I've been wondering, for a long time, whether Roger Ver was right all along....
Absolutely, 100%. Well said.
This is why I constantly sound like a Bitcoin bear around these parts. Bitcoiners are comforted by Bitcoin's apparent inevitability. While they may not be wrong, they are complacent in allowing the fiat system to go on FAR longer than it needs to.
Due to the reasons OP mentions in this thread, Bitcoin will NEVER happen as a "peaceful revolution". It WILL require a certain level of actual revolution.... probably requiring some violence and outright rebellion.
Sure, Bitcoin might still overtake fiat in a couple hundred years. But why are we okay with that awful narrative. Fuck that. Fuck this comment: #1261675
Take control and start standing up for what's right! I feel very alone in this fight, even though I know I'm surrounded by people who want the same thing. They just aren't willing to fight for it.
Has there ever been a significant, nation-state level trade settled in Bitcoin? Or is it just plebs buying pizzas and beers? MSTR is hodling, but they still use and accept fiat for all their business. And they're considered the extreme Bitcoin company.
"Most rapidly appreciating asset"... when measured in fiat. Still used to settle trade about as much as prison-cigarettes.