Can mobile wallets be real lightning nodes?
410 sats \ 16 comments \ @chairman_pretense 7 Dec 2022 bitcoin
One criticism of lightning that I’ve seen come up pretty frequently is the fear that most users won’t run their own nodes, with the assumption that running a lightning node means a dedicated always-on server (raspberry pi, desktop pc, VPS).
And consequently a fear of centralisation over time.
However, unless I’m missing something, aren’t wallets like Breez and Phoenix already running ‘real’ nodes on mobile?
Users retain the keys to their own channels with these mobile wallets, correct?
So long as those keys can be verified (and perhaps current implementations don’t allow this well enough), user funds are secure?
write
preview
related posts
607 sats \ 7 replies \ @DarthCoin 7 Dec 2022
Here in this comparison guide I presented all the types of LN wallets and their features.
Yes, you can run a LN node on your mobile and are not just Breez and Phoenix, but also others.:
And here is a special guide explaining how to start with LN, by each level. https://darthcoin.substack.com/p/getting-started-ln
reply
6 sats \ 4 replies \ @chairman_pretense OP 7 Dec 2022
Very cool, thanks!
Feels like such an important thing to make understood in the wider Lightning conversation.
Shuts down any of the “Lightning can only be custodial” conversations.
reply
2 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 7 Dec 2022
“Lightning can only be custodial” conversations.
Who said that is a fucking moron that know nothing or just spread FUD.
reply
22 sats \ 0 replies \ @NorthKoreanHostage 7 Dec 2022
Everything is impossible until the first guy does it.
Then nobody knows about it for years and still claims it's impossible. (we are here).
Then it gets popular. Then everybody uses it. Then everybody stops using everything else.
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @gandlaf21 8 Dec 2022
Lightning can only be custodial? i never heard that before.
the whole point of this tech is to be permissionless
reply
10 sats \ 0 replies \ @chairman_pretense OP 8 Dec 2022
It’s not true, but it’s a flavour of FUD. Lots of misinfo about lightning still floating around.
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @guyfawkes 8 Dec 2022
Hey @darthcoin, do you have an update that includes Phoenix? I’m playing around with Phoenix and wondering what device is communicating my side of the channel? Is it my phone only when I’m in the Phoenix app?
reply
40 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 8 Dec 2022
I didn't write any guide about Phoenix in particular because is quite simple to use. I don't think is needed more explanation. In my comparison guide is already included and presented all the functionalities.
Phoenix is a LN node, is a "private" node, that uses trampoline channels, like Electrum. That means you cannot route others payments through it, only yours. Your Phoenix node will always be the outer rim of the LN galaxy.
Yes, your LN node will be active only when you start Phoenix app.
reply
20 sats \ 2 replies \ @jk_14 7 Dec 2022
"We believe that we can have both: a non-custodial wallet with a good UX. This was our starting point and we didn’t compromise on that. Phoenix, just like Eclair Mobile, is a non-custodial Lightning wallet. It is based on Eclair and runs a real Lightning node under the hood. The keys never leave the wallet and you would still be in full control of your funds if ACINQ disappeared overnight, or even the whole Lightning Network for that matter. That was the non-negotiable part."
Old (but still nice) article: https://medium.com/@ACINQ/introducing-phoenix-5c5cc76c7f9e
Phoenix was my first LN wallet 3 years ago, and still is my favorite wallet. Nowadays the initial deposit of 300k sat is most reasonable to keep 1% fee for on-the-fly channel creation. Then you have a nice channel to play with (e.g. my Phoenix channel is almost 3 years old right now ;)
reply
10 sats \ 0 replies \ @NorthKoreanHostage 7 Dec 2022
Yeah Phoenix wallet is like actual magic.
Very slick. Very powerful.
reply
9 sats \ 0 replies \ @chairman_pretense OP 7 Dec 2022
This is brilliant, thank you.
reply
2 sats \ 0 replies \ @NorthKoreanHostage 7 Dec 2022
Great question. Holy shit. Not used to seeing those on the Internet.
reply
1 sat \ 0 replies \ @om 8 Dec 2022
the fear that most users won’t run their own nodes, with the assumption that running a lightning node means a dedicated always-on server
Indeed, most users won't run a dedicated always-on server. That's not fear, that's obvious.
And consequently a fear of centralisation over time.
Breez and Phoenix are centralized, no? Non-custodial though, which is great. But do we want LN to have just 2 big nodes (ok 3, WoS too)?
user funds are secure?
User funds are secure.
reply
1 sat \ 0 replies \ @chungkingexpress 7 Dec 2022
I don't know if I am for or against the specialisation of L2 or L3 tech. The base layer will always be able to be run at home by anyone, but it is natural that more advanced functionality built on top of that will be more complex and demanding from operators.
The way this has played out with running your own email server for example has been problematic, but I feel like that was an example from the very earliest days of the internet where threats like spam were not taken into account and so centralisation was required to overcome these.
In the case of Lightning, centralisation is driven simply because of the complexity and skill required and is not because of a threat vector to be routed around. My understanding is that Lightning is not forgiving to a novice and can be very complex to develop on and get running right.
Perhaps if there is a global ecosystem and free market for Lightning nodes, with a number of built-in wallets solutions, and plugins and packages / info for enthusiasts to run their own it will all work out?
Does this pose a risk to the network overtime? Or as long as channels are being opened and closed on base layer, everything that happens in between is up to the free market to innovate and build out?
reply
1 sat \ 0 replies \ @timechain 7 Dec 2022
The biggest hurdle with phone LN wallets is that one cannot always be available to receive, 24/7. However, this rarely is necessary for most users, it's more of a business thing.
Phoenix and Breeze are indeed nodes on mobile and they work pretty good, while automating away some channel management with different methods.
Also wanted to mention Muun. Muun is a non-custodial wallet as well. With Muun, you have a unified (on-chain and LN) balance. If you scan an onchain QR, it just sends normally. If you scan a LN QR, it seems like it is sending via LN like a "Wallet of Satoshi" and it comes out of your one balance. But if it is non-custodial (unlike Wallet of Satoshi) how does it work without running a node on your phone?
Behind the scenes, it sends an on-chain transaction to Muun's headquarters (which it accepts without waiting for any confirmations). Muun then pays the LN invoice for you from their headquarters. This results in pretty high fees for a LN transaction (because it's actually charging for an on-chain one)(luckily, fees at the moment are around 50 cents.)
They were kind of secretive about this process because it can be exploited, since they accept a transaction without confirmations (fullRBF makes this vulnerability more dangerous.) For this reason and due to future expectations of a higher fee environment (like experienced in 2017-18) causing on-chain fees to be intolerably higher than LN fees, Muun is planning on changing the way they handle this.
Another interesting thing in the works is the Mutiny project. Citadel Dispatch episode 82 dives in (
).
They are attempting to run a full LN node/wallet in a browser. Apple's App Store has been moving in the direction of wanting their cut of all monetary exchanges. Recently Coinbase wallet has halted transfer of NFTs due to Apple wanting a cut of gas fees, which isn't really possible since Apple is only interested in receiving USD. Anyway, the Duopoly of Google's Play Store and Apple's App Store is a possible vector of censorship that may be circumvented by a browser wallet.
Another model is Zeus. It's a non-custodial mobile wallet that runs super fast with little resources by just connecting to an at-home Lightning Node. If someone has a node at home, this is the best route.
Thanks for reading my rants!
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @02f125d44e 9 Dec 2022
Breez, Phoenix(albeit that you cant open to any other node except acinq), electrum and blixt wallet are all LN nodes. mobile ones due to their more limited resources. keys are on the phones. so what youd have to worry about is the os on the phone. graphineOS is probably the most secure and least google data mined phone out there.
reply