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I hadn't heard about Brazil's adventures with central bank digital currencies. But apparently, they're using something called Pix.
Pix is sort of like a publicly run version of Zelle, the payment system operated by a consortium of U.S. private banks. But Pix is much easier to use. And while Zelle is big, Pix has become simply huge, used by a reported 93 percent of Brazilian adults.
Krugman is really salty (I think the last time I read an article he wrote was four or five years ago, but, guy really seems to be down bad these days). In the spirit of objectivity, however, I tried to read the article without remembering his infamous predictions about Bitcoin and the Internet.
What Republicans are really afraid of, with good reason, is the likelihood that many people would prefer a CBDC to private bank accounts, especially but not only stablecoins. And in general any attempt to create a full-fledged CBDC would run into fierce opposition from the financial industry.
Krugman accurately identifies that Republicans do not care about the privacy of US citizens any more than Democrats do. However, I'm curious about his second claim: that the US financial system is the real blocker against adoption of a CBDC.
  • Pix transactions take place almost instantaneously. A Pix payment settles in 3 seconds on average versus 2 days for debit cards and 28 days for credit cards.
  • Transaction costs are low. The authorities have set a requirement on Pix to be free for individuals, and the cost of a payment transaction for firms/merchants is only 0.33 percent of the transaction amount, versus 1.13 percent for debit cards and 2.34 percent for credit cards.
We Bitcoiners have already identified that middlemen are a problem, so that logic checks out. It seems pretty reasonable that Visa, Mastercard, Paypal and Co would not like the idea of a central bank taking all their business. So when I hear politicians talking about laws that ban a CBDC or making sure it will never happen in the US, it makes me feel like we're being played. In this way, "CBDC" is becoming a very useful term for politicians, a lot like "terrorist."
In my mind, what the gov't gets out of a CBDC is surveillance and control. Does the government need to actually run the thing to achieve their ends? Certainly, the payment processors aren't going to stand up for our privacy rights.
One last point to remind myself why I find Krugman so repulsive:
If we ever do create a CBDC, it will surely involve comparable privacy protection. Either you trust in rule of law or you don’t.
In this way, "CBDC" is becoming a very useful term for politicians, a lot like "terrorist."
You nailed it. In the US politicians will campaign against CBDCs but support a stable surveillance coins and then make deals with the companies that run them to get any data they want.
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This. Krugman is right about Trump. Maybe he wouldn't be as irritating if he pretended to be a real economist, rather than a partisan hack making feeble attempts at humor.
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Yeah, Krugman is a clown though this is entirely by choice. I mean calling him a clown is being kind. He's lying scumbag. I can't think of a better description for someone that has a pattern of using his platform(many years at NYT) to lie over and over again.
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38 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 22 Jul
Yes, I think I was in a charitable mood when I replied. Lying scumbag works for me.
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Ha!
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Tom Woods and Bob Murphy did a podcast on this for years. It wasn't that he was "wrong". It wasn't just that. That I can understand. Its that he would lie. Claim he held positions he didn't. Contradict himself over and over again. Changing your mind is fine. Pretending you never held a different view is not OK.
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166 sats \ 2 replies \ @k00b 22 Jul
If you want to get pix-pilled: #458011
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amazing post!
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woah. I missed that one somehow.
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I'm a brazilian and since PIX was created it was a game changer for payments there, it's fast, easy, tax-free.. It's not a digital currency as you are paying with your brazilian reais
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114 sats \ 0 replies \ @freetx 22 Jul
Does the government need to actually run the thing to achieve their ends?
Exactly, which is why .gov doesn't really care about CDBCs from that end. Its actually easier and better for them to outsource the surveillance. They get the best of all words: They don't need to risk constitutional challenges, less physical work and money for them, still get the same data, and its yet another pressure point for them to keep on large banks which makes sure that the job hopping pipeline from regulator -> corporate consultant stays open.
Either you trust in rule of law or you don’t.
Like the laws preventing illegal entry over the border, right Paul?
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In Russia we have the same stuff by central bank, called SBP (fast payments system). Also widely used.
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Do you find that people use it to send money to each other very often (not just customers paying merchants/businesses)?
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I'd say currently it's the main way for people to send money to each other. Like 95% cases.
You only need the phone #.
Then you can see and confirm the firstname and first-letter-of-a-lastname and select the bank to send to (and the "main" bank, chosen by recipient, is selected by default)
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The problem in the end is that the pix belongs to the government, meaning it's not even the bank's. They can control you at will, like they did yesterday with the former president's son.
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Yes, this seems like a big problem. however, I'm not sure that our current system with payment processors as intermediaries is so different...it just hasn't been tested.
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Well, it really is as it says there, in seconds the payment is in the other person's account, what you know, everything is tracked by the government, here those who do P2P business do not like payments by pix, they say they are from the "devil".... hahaha
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I completely agree with your take on Pix — as a Brazilian, I feel genuinely proud of this system. Transactions are incredibly fast, and easy to use.
What makes it so successful is that all Brazilian banks were required to adopt and integrate it. It works kind of like a simplified and centralized version of the Lightning Network. Everyone has at least one Pix key — often two or more — which can be linked to things like a document number, phone number, or even a randomly generated code. You can also change which bank is associated with each key at any time.
I believe the US isn’t too fond of Pix because it poses a threat to credit and debit card systems, which in Brazil are mostly dominated by American companies like Visa and Mastercard.
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I agree with the general sentiment about Krugman, but I suspect he has a point about the US financial system not wanting to lose the control they have currently. -Tom
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102 sats \ 0 replies \ @Macoy31 11h
Pix is proof that fast lowcost payments can work at scale and its wild how 93percent adoption happened without needing crypto. It shows the real friction is not always tech but legacy systems and powerful middlemen. I agree the way CBDC is used now feels more like a political weapon than a tech conversation. And Krugman… well lets just say his track record speaks for itself. Privacy isnot baked into the system whether its run by the state or private banks unless we demand it.
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Honestly, the only good thing I see about Pix is that it's teaching people how to use digital money. Bitcoin's way ahead, though. Brazil's headed down the path of the next Venezuela, and Pix is a powerful tool for the government to get total control over everyone.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @xz 17h
I may be wrong but I don't see calling out cbdcs and terrorism as comparable, i.e, as a Trojan horse or pretext to strip freedoms, but I question the motive, as politics is politics. IMO, a better comparison might be the use of the term 'pro-crypto' given to this US administration. I don't think I'd have much difficulty selling the idea here that shoe-horning the public into digital payments and away from cash is concerning for a host of reasons, my concern is nothing particular to the implementation of digitization, it's more how it evolves when smartphone payments become a prerequisite to functioning in daily life.
While we now have tech firms bridging the gap of facilitating digital payments via domestic commercial bank and e-commerce payments, using interoperable QR-based specs, I see the problem is more the lean towards the everything apps that ensues. Not only some of the security concerns mentioned in #458011 but also where everything apps have been introduced, and usage probably borders on the 90-100%, social apps vie for the same broad spectrum of social media, payments, credit, ID verification, resulting in emergent dominant everything apps, perhaps two, but usually one that captures the guts and feathers of the entire market.
I realize this is not a central bank-based, but ties to state regulation and control are already bound to these platforms, and central bank or government policy becomes much easier to enforce (like it or not.) I've not heard of Zelle nor Pix before this post, but I see the same dynamic in other regions. What's interesting to me is that some countries sill have strong physical cash usage side-by-side with digital payments, others are making huge steps to migrate away from (privacy preserving) physical cash.
I don't understand if Krug was being genuine (doubt it) by saying republicans fear people would prefer cbdcs to private banks. Where in the world has rolled out cbdcs and actually use them to a meaningful extent today? I don't think the average person can really visualize what the advantages and disadvantages would be in bypassing commercial banks and lenders, and I do wonder whether the whole argument on cbdcs is a kind of red-herring. I still remember when the term cbdc was coined (shortly after Bitcoin came into public consciousness) digital cash was being airdropped to early adopters. I question ethics of central banks for that reason alone.
The only applications of building a state banking app seems to be the potential to airdrop freshly minted fiat, the potential to restrict access to usage of any digital payment system, and to debit taxes automatically, most of which is now controlled effectively with a 90% adoption rate of payment platforms that are plugged into commercial banks, and regulated by states. All of Krugs petitions to some kind of base logic is laughable and fail to take into account incentives of stake-holders in the real world, which we all know and experience.
"the payment processors aren't going to stand up for our privacy rights."
.. because they are all state regulated anyway. Agree.
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