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I think there is a strong possibility that, at some point, bitcoin will fork and the winner in terms of market value will be worse in terms of decentralisation, permissionlessness, etc. And due to network effects, it will retain it's higher market value.
Markets can be manipulated. ETFs and TCs could join forces and dump coins so a particular fork comes out with the highest market value. Plebs could be convinced to fight for a fork that is against their own interests. And this means, in the short term at least, powerful market interests could detrimentally control bitcoin's development.
But that wouldn't necessarily mark bitcoin's death: those changes could be reversed, once the pain of those poor changes becomes tangible.
Essentially, "In the short-run, the bitcoin protocol is a voting machine. But in the long-run, bitcoin protocol is a weighing machine", maybe? It could be corrupted, but in theory it could always be fixed.
Has anyone else written about this or explored this possibility? When I've seen people discuss this kind of thing, they always seem to assume that bitcoin will never be corrupted and will obviously survive forever.
234 sats \ 1 reply \ @optimism 9h
When I've seen people discuss this kind of thing, they always seem to assume that bitcoin will never be corrupted and will obviously survive forever.
Because it's consensus based, it doesn't really matter from an MoE perspective, as long as your counterparties and you agree. This is why BCH people literally believe among themselves they are the "true Bitcoin" - they have consensus among themselves, no matter if we call them shitcoiners: it doesn't matter to them what an outsider says. Also the BSVtards, but those are basically participating in a truly harmful cult based on gaslighting.
The trick is to not think of Bitcoin as a global phenomenon that will "take over" the world (for example the Saifedean LARP) that everyone will ultimately be naturally forced to adapt; that's the statist view. Try to picture it as a shadow economy where you can opt-in to participate, like it has always been, and still is. Then, you can be free, or at least, a little freer than you were before.
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Most realistic view
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Let them fork it! I will be glad to double (again) my BTC stash.
Markets can be manipulated. ETFs and TCs could join forces and dump coins
If you are more concerned about markets... then you understand nothing about Bitcoin. And you better stay away from it... more sats for me.
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I too would be tempted to dump my holdings of ETF coin in a contentious fork. But that doesn't guarantee ETF coin will lose.
With the current crop of bitcoin holders, it's become clear that many could be convinced to dump in favour of ETF coin. And the ETFs and TCs themselves hold a lot of bitcoin. If they all dumped, I think it'd be a high hurdle to jump.
And that's my point. I think there is a scenario where ETF coin would seemingly win the day and many would say "bitcoin has failed". But actually there is a strong chance that, even if the other fork coin didn't rise like a phoenix, the ETF coin itself would be fixed later.
All that said, it's possible you're right and that scenario won't play out: in the unlikely event that ETFs and TCs were to risk trying such a thing, that might not be enough to push a dodgy protocol change. Although you seem much more certain that it won't play out - and I think that's a weakness, because if it did happen you'll be like a Sardaukar confronted with defeat.
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10 sats \ 9 replies \ @DarthCoin 9h
And the ETFs and TCs themselves hold a lot of bitcoin
LOLOLOL you are such gullible. ETF's hold 0 (ZERO) bitcoin. They only have IOUs. But fine for me... you keep dreaming with ETF garbage, I will have more sats.
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15 sats \ 8 replies \ @leaf OP 9h
Guess it'll be interesting when the ETFs offer redemption in kind when they have zero bitcoin.
But fair enough. Was just hoping to spark some debate :)
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10 sats \ 7 replies \ @DarthCoin 9h
No debate with shitcoiners. Is totally useless and wast of time.
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0 sats \ 6 replies \ @leaf OP 9h
No debate with shitcoiners.
Nor with religious zealots, either.
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0 sats \ 4 replies \ @leaf OP 5h
I think we share the same dream :)
125 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 9h
This might not be the comment that anyone wants to hear, but I think no one can really know what will happen. As long as there are people around the world working to see Bitcoin succeed as a decentralized money it should continue. I might just add here that I think it's wrong to be so confident in one side of the current Knots vs Core debate. We might have to find out through a fork.
On a brighter note, look at some of these other worthless block chains like BSV. They've been 51% attacked, proven to be centralized with a known scammer as it's head. And yet it continues!
Bitcoin is going to be hard to kill.
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87 sats \ 1 reply \ @Daedalus 10h
What makes you think it's not already? It went from a delisted powerful anti-state P2P cash system to now a tech stock with ETFs and institutional investment. The only attempts I see at supporting the original goal is in the lightning community with sites like stacker.news. It's great to see but since we're so niche it's hard not to see that the original goal has been corrupted by the majority.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @leaf OP 9h
For me, bitcoin integrating with tradfi was inevitable. People still have the option to create their own utxos should they need to, whether government approved or not. So I wouldn't necessarily call that corruption. The majority will use bitcoin like they use the internet.
Devs scared to meege protocol changes for fear of backlash and/or people distorting others' sense of the consensus for such changes - that I could believe. Although I wouldn't be surprised if Simplicity came along, got activated with minimal fuss, stunning CTV/etc supporters. Because people are confusing being loud on twitter for consensus. Maybe nothing is being activated because things are being worked on they need time to cook. (This is all speculation on my behalf - I have no idea.)
But my main point here is the potential for corruption of the protocol itself - for the door to slightly open for something like actual transaction censorship due to a protocol change. And that maybe such a thing wouldn't be bitcoin's death knell
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35 sats \ 1 reply \ @Entrep 10h
Your theory makes total sense. It's like Bitcoin is that rebellious teenager who swears they'll never be like their parents, but then they get a corporate job, start wearing khakis, and complain about their 401k
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Haha... there may be some truth to this... maybe not Bitcoin itself, but some influential Bitcoiners
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Bitcoin's a cat. 9 lives. 1 down. 8 more to go.
Run your node. Hold your keys. Mine your coin.
History repeats.
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No doubt there are endless scenarios to consider but I expect it to go differently, with the corrupted fork enjoying only fleeting success.
The hardcore bitcoin community will dump their forkcoin for Bitcoin and continue maintaining it.
Without their influence, the corrupting forces will continue degrading the quality of the forkcoin and more people will dump it for Bitcoin Classic.
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47 sats \ 2 replies \ @leaf OP 9h
I'd agree. I think that that is the more probable scenario.
But at the same time, I can imagine that if in the immediate aftermath of the fork, if forkcoin was worth more, then it wouldn't take long for network effects to make that insurmountable.
Diehard bitcoiners would lose financially and struggle with it immensely - they'd probably resemble BCashers - when the correction action could be to uncorrupt forkcoin.
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Not really because they will still be holders of the fork coin. Just don't dump all the fork coin at a low price and you'll be fine
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I wasn’t around for the Blocksize Wars but my expectation is that those of us who care the most about using bitcoin as money will cluster on one side.
Actually using it as money will make ours the winning side.
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25 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby 10h
What do you think we be the cause of such a fork? Internal arguing among bitcoiners (a la knots v core) or external shitcoiner/etc blackrock forces?
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It could be anything. My guess is that bitcoin has many contentious forks to come.
I have another theory that bitcoin will never ossify and get corrupted and then fixed repeatedly over time, kind of like the rise and fall of civilisations.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @dgy 2h
As Jeff Booth repeatably said: "If Bitcoin stays decentralized..."
Unfortunately people have a tendency to get lazy, complacent, submissive to authority etc. which can lead them away from the right path. Just like it's told in the Bible over and over again.
Therefore stay vigilant and put in the work.
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ETFs are centralisation. So are BTC Treasury companies. They are not going to stop - increasing institutional custody is now firmly in place. BTC use as an un KYCed p2p MoE is now almost non existent.
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It wasn’t because of corruption, but there’ve been other forks in the past, and we’re still here today. Evil never beats good!
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Long live Bitcoin and SN
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @chovyfu 11h
i'm in agreement 100%. we (the people) will always lose in the end to corporate interests.
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My point is that while corporate interests may win the in short term, even to the point of getting their way in a contentious fork, in the longer term there is a possibility to reverse course.
When the effects of a particular change are in the future and highly theoretical, it's easy for people to be misled. When a change fixes something tangibly experienced right now, then it's much harder to manipulate the market.
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