pull down to refresh
1055 sats \ 22 replies \ @DarthCoin 23h \ on: What I *still* cannot understand is the tone-deafness and absolute fantasy... bitcoin
Truth. I would add: why people should care if gov accept or not their sats?
In fact they should REJECT TOTALLY paying any gov with their sats.
GOVERNMENTS ARE CORPORATIONS, remember?
What you get back if you give to a gov your sats? Slavery? Tyranny?
You have to be total insane to give your BTC to any gov or so called "bitcoin treasury".
The sad reality nowadays is this:
Yes but the point is that most people will remain obedient to the government.
Therefore the chances of Bitcoin ever being widely enough adopted to be a viable everyday MoE are about the same as the chances of Linux ever overcoming the corporate state surveillance dominance of Windows, Microsoft and Google.
Most people are not going to break the law to gain monetary freedom because most people have been trained and corralled not to by the state and history.
The government do not care much if you go live in the forest in a sackcloth citadel- as long as most citizens still obediently use the state monopoly fiat currency.
Most Bitcoiners are in tragic cowering denial of the brutal reality the above post describes.
Bitcoin has already been largely captured and controlled, kyced and taxed, as a harmless speculative commodity, increasingly held in the cold store custody of corporate associates of the bankers and government.
The P2P MoE utility-adoption of Bitcoin has been very cunningly and successfully obstructed.
reply
You of all people must know there are a good many examples throughout history where superior strategy overcame sheer quantity of soldiers.
reply
reply
Yes but does a truly decentralised P2P payments algorithm even have the capacity to have a conscious strategy vs the worlds most powerful and deeply entrenched fiat debt slavery bankers cartel that owns most governments and their military-industrial complex imperatives?
reply
It's an unconcious strategy. That's why it's superior. We didn't plan the route from drug dealing to online poker to the presidency. It just worked, because people instinctively seek out the best form of money as a means of self-preservation, elites included. Your nihilistic framework doesn't explain the success we've already attained.
reply
A declining empire and its weak and debasing currency is certainly helpful but there is no such thing as an unconscious strategy.
That is a pure oxymoron nonsense.
Strategy must be conscious to be strategy.
There is also nothing nihilistic about my worldview.
On the contrary I constantly point out that humans are very much a competitive and conscious life form that forms groups for security and economic advantage and that in that context all analysis must be considered.
Evolution is not nihilistic but scientific.
Your implied assertion that governments are inherently 'wrong' or 'inefficient' is lacking in logic, evidence and historical proof of work. Just because markets can in many cases but not all, work well when operating under the benign oversight of good government does not mean government is not important.
The history, logic and evidence all strongly indicate governments are a significant factor in the wealth of nations.
reply
Your implied assertion that governments are inherently 'wrong' or 'inefficient' is lacking in logic, evidence and historical proof of work.
The adoption of Bitcoin as global reserve currency and subsequent world peace is evidence that statism failed.
reply
No, it would only be a manifestation of a post industrial digital era gold analogue.
There would still be governments, perhaps slightly more accountable and honest and significantly less owned and controlled by rentseeking debt slavery Jewish bankers.
Bitcoin use for trade payments does not even account for 0.00000001% of global trade suggesting that the state imposed fiat MoE strategic monopoly remains largely intact.
Bitcoin has already been largely slyly subverted into a harmless speculative commodity plaything role where it is taxed and tracked and traced and increasingly held in the cold custody of bankers associates who never allow it to be used for MoE.
Much like they did with gold already...
reply
That's why there's an outsized benefit to buying it now while it's still niche. That's the unconcious strategy at work. The anti-state libertatians acquire the most Bitcoin at the lowest price, while statists tend to buy in late.
The government do not care much if you go live in the forest in a sackcloth citadel- as long as most citizens still obediently use the state monopoly fiat currency.
It seems like an awkward stretch to assume that out of all the groups making up the current Western sphere, bitcoiners would be the ones "living in the forest in a sackcloth citadel."
Governments are failing at retaining citizen with means to finance their programs. The only reason for them to stay is if they have a way to insulate their funds from the government's greedy grasp.
Even the most patriotic/altruistic ones will be forced to leave if the governments start closing the escape hatches. Or end up in sackcloth with the rest of the net-negative (economically speaking) majority, clamoring for more distributions from a fantastical parallel dimension where modern monetary theory can be made to magically work by manifestation alone.
reply
We are and I am discussing/exploring the considerable obstruction that exists in western democracies to MoE use of Bitcoin.
It does not seem you are addressing the same issue or responding to my comments in context.
Regardless the first point was a dig at Darthcoin and reinforcing the point that for Bitcoin utility to be widespread and useful it needs to be able to be able to be used easily and lawfully- and currently it is not.
Second point- I assume you are referring to taxation and fiat debasement (indirect taxation) but that is not the issue being discussed. Certainly agree western liberal democracies have been failing miserably to apply a coherent program of economic development for decades and are clearly now losing competitive advantage and strategic control of supply chains to China, but again, that is a different issue to what this thread was about.
reply
It does not seem you are addressing the same issue or responding to my comments in context. Regardless the first point was a dig at Darthcoin and reinforcing the point that for Bitcoin utility to be widespread and useful it needs to be able to be able to be used easily and lawfully- and currently it is not.
I'm using it both easily and lawfully, currently even multiple times a week. And have been doing so, albeit more infrequently, in at least 3 other jurisdictions over the past 6 months.
You're limiting your point of view by discounting how easy it is to use btc outside of wherever it is that you are not able to. How hard does your government need to tighten the screws until you start considering other options? And how hard until those with means do?
reply
You have changed the subject but ok lets go with that.
Where are you able to use Bitcoin as a convenient and legal MoE without complex and impractical recording of all transactions to account for potential capital gains tax liability?
El Salvador?
Where?
Not in most liberal western democracies- and in most autocracies MoE use is outright explicitly banned.
reply
You have changed the subject but ok lets go with that.
I'm a bit confused as to how I changed it. Didn't you write this?
for Bitcoin utility to be widespread and useful it needs to be able to be able to be used easily and lawfully
Anyway, it doesn't matter. Maybe a language barrier thing on my end.
Where are you able to use Bitcoin as a convenient and legal MoE without complex and impractical recording of all transactions to account for potential capital gains tax liability?
I have used it legally frequently in Germany, France and South Africa. Particularly SA has far more merchants compared to the other two.
Other than those, a handful of purchases in Norway and Switzerland. All of those p2p.
Tax liability has only to do with where my tax residence is. At first that was Germany (ie. tax-free after holding for a year.) More recently I gave up that tax residency, meaning I'm not a tax resident anywhere anymore. Yes, that is possible.
I'm looking at options if and where I would want to submit to a tax residency that does not obstruct my use of btc as money, but haven't found a good enough reason for pulling the trigger on that yet.
The only inconvenience my lack of a tax residency causes me is in two scenarios:
- Services that have KYC questionnaires demanding I provide a tax residency (more often than not, they have no reason to have that information), and
- Getting access to new fiat rails. For example, if I wanted to open a new bank account.
And even so: I record all my transactions anyway for other reasons, and that includes cap gains. It isn't as complex or impractical as you imagine it to be.
Yes, recording those expenses is friction, but I find it worth it to be able to document how much we're benefiting from the deflationary nature of btc over time.
reply
I have heard cgs are exempt in Germany after an investment commodity is held for at least one year but can you confirm that evidence of time of acquisition and disposal must not be held?
If it is not then how the fuck do they enforce it?
You would still have to record each and every acquisition and disposal (ie every single use of BTC for MoE- time, date, exchange rate, amount in clear tabulated form thank you) in order to be able to demonstrate you have held for at least 12 months prior to disposal.
Do you do that?
If not you are(were) in clear breach of German tax law.
Now you say you have no tax jurisdiction- ok good luck with that but please recognise not many people will want to adopt that approach.
For most people the benefits and security of tax residence far outweigh the costs...and going into no mans land is not going to be incentive for most people to adopt Bitcoin as their preferred MoE!
So lawful MoE use of Bitcoin is not available to citizens in the vast majority of global democracies and while we can just ignore the law and probably get away with it, most people will not want to do that either.
reply
You would still have to record each and every acquisition and disposal (ie every single use of BTC for MoE- time, date, exchange rate, amount in clear tabulated form thank you) in order to be able to demonstrate you have held for at least 12 months prior to disposal. Do you do that?
Yes. Even though I don't need to anymore.
It's not as hard as you make it out to be.
As a side note: It's baffling to me that people who are not doing it, and never attempted to do it in earnest, claim steadfastly that it's too hard.
It's nothing more than a simple sheet that tracks cost of goods sold. And the only good is sats.
For most people the benefits and security of tax residence far outweigh the costs...
What can I say? Some people like to be shackled. Others don't.
and going into no mans land is not going to be incentive for most people to adopt Bitcoin as their preferred MoE!
There it is again. You seem to imagine me living in a desert, camping (illegally of course) behind sand dunes. Dust swirling around my rusty wash bucket.
But I can't blame you for that. That is the results of years of your upbringing, conditioning and indoctrination. The state is really good at that. If they weren't, they'd falter.
So lawful MoE use of Bitcoin is not available to citizens in the vast majority of global democracies
That is blatantly false. I showed you above how it can be done legally.
If you don't want to get locked up by your local mafia, track your cgt and pay up. It's not that hard. I rather enjoy not being locked up, so I've been doing it for years.
If that bit of friction is too much to ask, the imagined burden too much to even try it in earnest, well, then you're still too comfortable to step out of your local fiat maxi bubble.