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money is the moderator
Yeah. 90% of it my money, at 3x disadvantage.
some possible alternatives to the current system:
- make boosts equal in weight to downzaps (because we know in each case that sats don't end up with the person doing the action)
- make downzaps equal to zaps in weighting
- make it so that downzaps can never reduce an item below 0
as an interesting sidenote: if you use an alt account to zap yourself in a territory you own, I believe you collect ~90% of the zap. So, at least for posts you make, you are not at a 3x disadvantage.
This is also the reason why zaps only count for a third as much as downzaps. SN has no way of knowing when a user is using a sock puppet account to zap themselves.
Yes but we're talking about @SimpleStacker's post here, not mine. And yesterday it was @denlillaapan's.
it is a problem for sure. It'd be bad though to expose SN to a new problem in an attempt to fix this one.
Back in August there was that scammy pig.gy site that tried boosting their post to the top of the feed (#1090193). They boosted it by 160k sats and it got 20k in downzaps and was outlawed. There is no more outlawing, but if (when) downzaps = zaps, such posts will be more difficult to bury. At the moment that seems less bad than the current downzap fest. But I wonder what will happen if we have someone who is really committed to boosting shitty content.
Is boosting bad content as much of a problem as downzapping good content?
Not really sure. But I think we have more tools for ignoring bad content than we do for finding good content that doesn't get surfaced.
Trust did some of that work for us. Perhaps we're seeing the downside of eliminating trust.
I thought about this for a bit but I don't think we can tell. Because with the trust removal a whole lot of other things had to change, it's the entire package in it's current form that doesn't work - that's measurable.
Trust act like a blanket. It dampens the noise and keeps some of us warm, but it doesn't extend to everyone, so some will sit in the cold, especially newcomers, because trust gets built. Without trust the playing field for newcomers vs oldtimers is level, but we now found out that there aren't enough sats circling around to repel attacks at this scale, at least not at 3x disadvantage. More sats were spent to defend some good posts up than on the downzaps, but it wasn't enough to keep the posts visible. Defenders have lost 2 rounds now...
oops
until the last week, I'd say boosting bad content was a worse problem.
I think we have more tools for ignoring bad content than we do for finding good content that doesn't get surfaced.
This feels like it is true though. It is more frustrating when you can't find good content than when you see bad content.
I remember haha
Yes. But there is no reason to sybil zap if there is boost that is even more effective than sybil-upzapping your own post on your own territory. So from an optimization pov, why would anyone do the trouble of sybil zaps? Just for appearance sake?
We know that there are some stackers with sybil accounts (because they admit it) for their bots but I haven't seen much abuse there. So from the policing the ad-bots perspective, like the L402 bot we have since spamming their own L402 endpoint in... 11 posts thus far (just saw they also spam ~bitcoin, ugh). That's honey-potting stackers and it will enshittify SN if it makes sats - thus my need for making comments expensive (but probably too much), as I see that as a lesser evil than moderation with a button that has no cost.
Either way, right now SN feels vulnerable. We have good discussions downzapped into oblivion over stupid horses and guns
sock puppet
<3
It was working fine until someone decided to go activist.
But it has revealed a new attack surface and vulnerability.
Not sure what the solution is. Brain too tired.
If your main priority in life is in pleasing your CCP handlers by donating relentlessly to Stackers, then ....
Agreed. I just wish my coffers were as limitless as his (i know they are not).
Hiding our cowboy gear might be a decent enough defense if enough people catch on.
Could be both. Somewhere he wrote that he's paid by the CCP, hence my earlier comment. I take him at his word.
In either case, agree. Find something better to do with your sats besides being disruping to others.
Whoops, there I opened my mouth and became a target. c'est la vie
I have put forward the reasoned arguments supporting my actions...many many times and well before taking more direct action.
Nobody has ever responded with any convincing reason why they cannot attach wallets and show a gun and horse thus providing PoW that they support and have made the effort to engage in the P2P sats denominated V4V ethos that SNs has been built upon.
Invite you to provide such a retort and would reconsider my views if that retort is convincing.
In turn will resist attempts to bully, marginalise or troll against me.
Have put forward a reasoned argument that has yet to be refuted.
The contest of ideas is the foundation upon which a lot of our supposed shared values are based upon- use it.
Do not trust - verify.
You have only ONE task: pay me
I have put forward the reasoned arguments supporting my actions...many many times and well before taking more direct action.
Nobody has ever responded with any convincing reason why they cannot attach wallets and show a gun and horse thus providing PoW that they support and have made the effort to engage in the P2P sats denominated V4V ethos that SNs has been built upon.
Invite you to provide such a retort and would reconsider my views if that retort is convincing.
In turn will resist attempts to bully, marginalise or troll against me.
Have put forward a reasoned argument that has yet to be refuted.
The contest of ideas is the foundation upon which a lot of our supposed shared values are based upon- use it.
C&P troll
You appear incapable of responding to a reasoned argument with a credible reasoned retort.
You thus concede defeat, by default, in the contest of ideas.
No. I already discussed this with you. You actually never provided an answer for running a non-custodial solution with code that you reviewed and can actually recommend.
I don't concede anything, and I don't C&P.
Why do you need to use a self custodial wallet?
I suggested you use coinos as that is so easy even I can use it!
Only keep a small balance in coinos and you are fine.
Yes there is a small risk with trusting custody to a wallet but there are equally risks and problems with self custodial.
Even @DarthCoin with his huge knowledge of LN claims that attaching self custodial wallet to SNs would stress his nodes- if he cannot do it easily at this stage of LN development probably few can...so we must use what we can use and by doing so support the development of the LN.
When using SNs everyday we are often making multiple small transactions.
If we attach wallets each and every transaction is supporting the growth of the network making it and the wallets and nodes stronger.
If we support the wallets they have the fees income and volume to grow and develop.
Coinos is apparently now introducing a self custodial wallet.
Do we want to use what we have got and strengthen the LN, or not?
I will C&P when morons like @Darthcoin respond to a detailed reasoned argument with childish memes and trolling that completely ignore the facts and issues raised in my comment they are 'responding' to. Not.
Am trying to remind him I would prefer a constructive reasoned debate, and failing that, highlighting that he appears incapable of such.
Coinos
We had that discussion before too... it's an insecure, uninsured bank. If I had to choose between sucking saylor dick and using that shit, I'd suck saylor dick. And I fucking hate saylor.
Why do you need to use a self custodial wallet?
Because banks are evil, and Bitcoin banks are evil squared. And yes, coinos gets hacked every other month. They are an atrocity. If you want CCs to go away then fix it and do the pull request here.
Do we want to use what we have got and strengthen the LN, or not?
Not at the cost of downzapping credible items on SN. I'm here for the discourse with stand up people. You're downzapping their posts out of some misplaced activism because you need attention. Now I have less discourse, except with your stupid copy paste replies.
hey moron, did you read SN FAQ page?
It explain very simple how CCs works. If you cannot understand it, please STFU ifiot.
So... we're letting trolls silence anyone that opposes them? What's this, SN?