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Apparently more people thinking about these things right now.

Saw this in the morning (it's like the algos are spying on me!)

I almost never say this... but Tom Woods is straight-up, downright, 100% WRONG here

Wall Street is sending the public a dire warning: President Donald Trump has become a threat to the very foundation of American freedom — your frequent flier miles. Okay, America’s big banks haven’t been using rhetoric quite that grandiose. But they are accusing Trump of imperiling Americans’ credit card rewards.

Yes, America shouldn't have credit card rewards. They're a dumb, intransparent, rent-seeking, unfair redistribution mechanism #1598123, #1598593. Yes, I know it's a lefty talking point... but you can hate the loyalty schemes scams without a bleeding-heart consideration for the poor.


This affordability gain does come at a cost; American cardholders do tend to reap higher rewards than Australian or European ones. But this is not a good trade from the standpoint of economic justice; few think it is fair to take money from the poor to give to the rich.

not weighing into the political drama of this, or whether or not this specific government legislation (which I know nothing about) is a good/useful way to improve the world...

..."working tirelessly to pass the Credit Card Competition Act, in order to stop the out of control Swipe Fee ripoff!”

At least the president is right about the "out of control [sic!] Swipe Fee [sic!] ripoff"

Large retailers are lobbying hard to get the Credit Card Competition Act passed during December’s lame-duck congressional session. Banks have responded by issuing a “code red,” in the words of the Wall Street Journal. In recent days, their lobbyists have warned policymakers that, if swipe fees fall, credit cardholders’ cash rewards and travel points will go down with them.

Yeah, that two major industries are at clear, incentive-based cross-purposes here should tell you something about the insane situation in the first place... what the banking/loyalty/points scheme gains, the retailers lose. Your rewards come out of businesses' interchange fees in the first place (and secondly, if you play the game well, at the expense of unsophisticated/naive customers elsewhere, like we discussed yesterday #1598123)

"if the banks’ big-picture story is right — and the law cuts both swipe fees and credit card rewards — that would probably benefit the average American."

Precisely.


"we need to first examine how the credit card system currently works — and whom it does and doesn’t benefit."

Alright, cool; that's what we came for:

Whenever you use a credit card to purchase a banana from Aldi, or volleyball from Dick’s, or an adult-sized Grape Fanta Can Halloween costume from Party City, the retailer must pay a fee to the bank that issued your card. The bank then uses that revenue to fund your rewards.
Critically, merchants don’t just eat the costs of swipe fees. Rather, they pass on part of the expense to consumers, in the form of higher prices. Some businesses concentrate these price hikes on card users (for example, barbershops often charge less if you pay with cash). But most retailers charge every customer the same price, regardless of their payment method.

Yup, we know.

shoppers who pay with cash or debit effectively subsidize those who pay with cards: The former face higher prices than they would in a world without credit cards, yet they receive no “cash back” or travel points in recompense.

I repeat the graph from yesterday: (authors used FICO scores to proxy well-off, but you can just think of what the graph reflects in reality as outsider-insider or the x-axis showing how well you play the loyalty scam game.) YES, if you play well, you can eke out some benefits... but most people, most of the time lose out.

This arrangement seems unfair on its face. But it is especially troubling when one considers class disparities in the use of credit cards and receipt of rewards.
As a general rule, the higher a person’s income, the more they use credit cards. In 2024, US households who earned less than $25,000 a year put just 17 percent of their payments on credit cards; among households earning more than $150,000, that figure was 51 percent, according to Federal Reserve data.

...and higher income basically proxy ~higher FICOs so yeah: What you're saying is those better off play this game more; yes, exactly.

It's not (like the author focuses on and what turns our friend Tom Woods off) primarily wrong that the poor are getting screwed. They are, but we (mostly) don't care about that (fuck the boomers, who are rich; but also, fuck the poor.)

It's because loyalty programs are intransparent, unnecessary, centralizing, and faces the rich with incentives to play useless, low-paid games -- or face high enough opportunity cost that optimizing become prohibitively expensive; thus constituting a wealth transfer to the financial industry (and the portion of major companies, GE or airlines/hotels or Starbucks, that have turned into proto-banks #743123).

oh, sweet:

According to a 2026 working paper from the National Bureau of Economic Research, the credit card system takes, on average, $88 a year from households with annual incomes below $150,000, while delivering an average yearly benefit of $390 to households with incomes above that threshold.

Credit cards...

serve a variety of valuable economic purposes, from helping households weather unexpected expenses and irregular incomes to facilitating online commerce. And maintaining a credit card system costs money: Banks need to finance the loans they extend, while payment networks must maintain vast computer systems to process transactions and detect fraud.

Yeah, I mean, they don't: we have a better monetary system that doesn't require that (but admittedly, requires other expenses #1598748)

"Yet America’s credit card system is needlessly expensive. Our nation’s merchants — and thus, consumers — pay far higher swipe fees than their counterparts in other rich countries."

THIS comparison I'm less sold on: $100 spent in...

  • America (standard visa vs premium): cost merchant 1.23-2.07
  • Canada: $0.95
  • EU and Australia: capped at $0.30 (though, usually with high/higher fixed fees or machine rents or annual sign-up fees)

OK, now we're back to the usual government-botching-things and stop regulating stupid shit:

Under the CCCA, however, Party City would be able to accept Visa on a transaction — without necessarily using Visa to process the payment. Instead, the bank that issued the customer’s Visa would need to provide Party City with at least one alternative payment processor — a different network that has no relationship with Visa and which might offer lower fees. The law’s authors hope — and the banking industry fears — that this mandatory competition will force down swipe fees. But it’s not clear how much of a difference the CCCA would actually make.

JUST red tape in a separate form. Fuck it.


TL;DR, the article and its author is completely right but for accidental/entirely wrong reasons. It's not the welfare of the poor (or redistribution) that's wrong, it's a secondary (tertiary?) monetary system, with intransparent non-par prices, nudging everyone to play a heavily skewed, mostly negative-sum game.

JUST. DON'T.

The credit card companies have too much power anyway. The fact that they can censor content by removing payment rails should disgust everyone.

Fuck swipe fees and credit card companies.

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I dunno man. I think people are willing to pay the swipe fees out of convenience. I bet even if stores advertised the credit card swipe fees, most people will still do it.

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would be a nice test.

Also: Grok tells me it's legal in all 50 states to offer discounts for debit/cash payment. I can't recall having ever seen that... so, we blame the merchants for not competing more aggressively here?

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TBH I think merchants are also happy for the convenience. I'm in charge of payments for my church and we gladly accept ~2-3% credit card fees for the convenience of not having to handle a bunch of cash/checks. Handling cash and checks add up to a lot of cost in terms of time and effort, especially in terms of tracking payments and bookkeeping.

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75 sats \ 1 reply \ @gmd 20 Oct

yup, cash especially you have to deal with armored transport, robberies, etc.

I'm assuming the only reason some prefer taxes is to transact under the table and avoid taxes.

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We need to add Wulf to our database

Your database

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I guess that's one way of thinking about it

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I'd love it if we could use Lightning Payments instead but normies ain't ready for that

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a kiiiid can dream

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fwiw Australia literally just banned swipe fees two weeks ago. Most people are pretty happy but yes the Big 4 started 'ammending' their points schemes a few weeks prior.

American Express remains unchanged for now.

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...the Big 4 started 'ammending' their points schemes a few weeks prior.

beautiful silver lining. That's what we want!

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the retailer must pay a fee to the bank that issued your card

Why? Is it a market price or some weird statute?

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The retailer pays a fee to his own bank-acquirer that gave him the terminal. The rate is in the agreed terms and conditions. That bank pays a smaller fee to visa/mastercard, and they in turn are able to pay a rebate to the bank who issued the card.

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I guess the question is what the friction is in the system that prevents competition from driving those fees down.

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I'm not sure what their marginal costs are, but my guess is that credit card issuers aren't making runaway ROIs way above their opportunity costs, so competition is probably working. I mentioned below that I think there's a real demand for the convenience of credit cards over cash & checks, and that many customers/merchants are willing to pay higher prices in order to use digital payments.

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I suspect you're right. This line of questioning is to get at whatever perceived injustice Den is bitching about with these posts.

If they're mostly just recouping costs inherent to the technology, then having the government step in to prohibit these fees isn't going to help anyone (shocker!).

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hm... not sure of the history.

Heavily oligopolistic, at least with regulatory protection and/or cultural lock-in.

Google gives me this Fed paper history. Will take a peek. https://www.kansascityfed.org/documents/7409/PSCP2005_Evans-Schmalensee.pdf

... there's also quite some gov regulation/legal cases that govern this shit

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They shouldn’t have to set “socially optimal” fees. The market should force them to that point, absent any weird protections.

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Is this about getting rid merchant fees entirely or just making them less? Credit card companies (the brand of your card or the bank behind it) and networks (VISA, etc) are businesses that also have to make money.

I would understand making swipe fees less to lessen the burden on merchants but reducing rewards. I wish Bitcoin could see real use tho :<

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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @alicrypto 20 Oct freebie -30 sats

This is exactly why we need sound money like Bitcoin. The traditional banking system is full of these hidden, rent-seeking mechanisms. Credit card rewards aren't "free money"; they are just marketing tricks funded by the fees they charge merchants. With Bitcoin and the Lightning Network, transactions are direct, transparent, and don't require middlemen skimming off the top to pay for our "rewards."