As some of you may or may not know, there has been some back and forth between Coinkite and WalletScrutiny, myself, others on their dubious reproducible build claim. In short, we have had issues getting THEIR reproducibility procedure to result in a "SUCCESS". Both WS and myself have reached out to them both via email and on Twitter and the response we've received from them (and NVK specifically) have been disappointing to say the least. From stating that we don't know what we're doing, to constantly pointing us to their guide which we had already said we had used, to outright threatening us with a lawsuit it's been absolutely abhorrent.
My only intention in contacting them about this issue was to highlight it and if possible, help them fix it or fix/edit their documentation to ensure everyone can get "SUCCESS". I wanted Coinkite to succeed. carl_dong and WalletScrutiny have since figured out what the issue was and have posted about it. For months this has been an issue and NVK has spent all of his time threatening and bullying anyone that pointed it out instead of doing what carl_dong and WS did and figuring out how to fix it. This is very telling and why I will never do business with them again. The fact that the ColdCard repo does NOT have their Issue tracker enabled is VERY telling and in retrospect should've been a red flag.
In conclusion, I would say this is a sort of PSA. Do you research and don't trust, verify. Seems like many in the community are always saying this ("dont trust, verify") yet few do. While ColdCard's hardware may be good, their owner and their practices are sketchy and that's a huge red flag.
Attitude is only relevant when determining whether you trust someone. It's not really relevant when verifying.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to anyone's particular attitude online. Most people are strung out on fight videos and stuff. Some people are also just naturally grumpy, rude, and socially unreasonable and being online just makes it worse.
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I agree. And NVKs attitude has removed all trust I have in him, his product, and his receptiveness and willingness to fix issues. If he can't handle constructive feedback and issue reporting, then it's very possible for there to be existing bugs in the code that have been reported but ignored. Attitude is a great indicator of how a person/company will act in the future and whether that will be beneficial or detrimental.
I, like many, don't/can't look at every line of code and determine if there's no issue with it. As such, I depend on others with higher skillsets to do so and report any issues. Without a public issue tracker and with NVK dismissing and blocking people for reporting issues, there's effectively no way of knowing if there's an issue with their software. Look at the struggle it was just to get to the bottom of this nonreproducible issue! And this is a simple thing!
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To be honest - when I was new to this bitcoin thing, I admired nvk a bit. ColdCard was among the few hardware wallets that I wanted to buy.
But he just kept hatin, and hatin, and hatin, and hatin.
To the point that I feel like, man, this guy treats me - us - like trash.
And we're not even attacking him... He just went full on rambo on us. like, wtf man, if its not reproducible, help us figure it out, if you know something.
Dude got no chill.
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This 100%. Couldn't have stated it better myself. WalletScrutiny, myself, and others were nothing but respectful and he was just acting like we had killed his dog or something. Very odd. Honestly, it felt to me like how someone that has something to hide would act (not saying he does).
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yes but I would distinguish between general behaviour online eg obnoxious behaviour on twitter, and responding to issues raised about their product or claims they make about their product
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I know this is a very different problem, but I ordered some stuff from them nearly a month ago and they still haven't shipped. They say they have a large backlog, but it's still an unreasonably long delay.
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Do you have some links to previous conversations with NVK?
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He has since blocked me on Twitter (another example of how he deals with feedback). That said, even if he hadn't, I still wouldn't post it because it would be enough to link this account to that one. Regardless, his posts are public so you can go look for yourself how he's treated others such as WalletScrutiny. Go look for his recent tweet where he floated the idea of suing WS (if he hasn't deleted it yet).
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Why are you communicating with him on twitter?
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Regardless, if their build is unreproducible using their instructions (regardless if its from poor documentation), its not worthy to be used for generating bitcoin wallets.
There is another thread on this tooic, and @nvk is also here on SN
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Because Nostr is a hot mess and I am interested in other topics in addition to bitcoin so I use Twitter.
I agree with your statement on worthiness wholeheartedly which is why I was trying to get that issue resolved with them. I wanted them to fix it so that I could continue using and enjoying CC. I want them to succeed.
If he could block me on SN he probably would. LOL He's probably flagging me ;) Notice his response in that thread you linked. It's a good example of what I'm talking about. He just dismisses any user that reports an issue.
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It appears this is a misunderstanding. You can use your twitter app and read this thread explaining why your build didn't match. Both honest and dishonest people don't want to be called a liar, so @nvk 's response is excusable, even if it raises suspicions.
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Yes, I saw that thread. That's not what this post is about. As the title suggests, it's about "their toxic attitude towards users who highlight issues". In this specific case, it ended up being something benign. But if this is how NVK acts with something as benign as this, it's only reasonable to assume that he may react the same or worse on other not-so-benign issues being reported. Hell, how do we know there haven't been other issues reported that were just dismissed by NVK or suppressed by threat of lawsuit?
The point is not that this issue was a real security issue. The point is that his attitude is a risk for the security of his software now and in the future. A good example is how they've now changed the license of their software. Before it was a true open source license that anyone could use and thus had an incentive to scrub and find bugs in. Now, because of their attitude and beef with Foundation, they've changed the license to one that doesn't encourage others to dig deep into their code which, in my opinion, is a security risk.
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(floated the idea of suing WS)
can you give a nitter link to that one, haven't seen it.
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Didn't think about using Nitter. Here it is: https://nitter.net/nvk/status/1671238674057502721#m
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thanks got it. wow. can't believe this guy.
is he contemplating on suing everyone in ws?
I have $35 in my bank account....
The house im living in, isn't even under my name.
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NVK is the CSW of wallet devs.
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Were there other prominent figures in the bitcoin space talking about this issue or his attitude?
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WalletScrutiny is the most prominent I can think of. The rest have been other users like myself that have all had the same issues and posted about it and gotten the same toxic response. Here's a recent SN post that's similar: #197704
Not sure if the person that made that post is "prominent". I saw a few back and forths between NVK and other "popular" bitcoiners on Twitter that ended with NVK blocking them. I'm sure if you do a search on Twitter you can find it.
Honestly, in my opinion, most popular bitcoiners are shills and don't verify anything. They just repeat what others say and blindly recommend things just because it works and not because they've done the work to verify the company/person behind the product is trustworthy or what the company claims is true.
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Thanks. I don't have Twitter and I don't have time to look it up, this is why I was asking. I'm not questioning what you claim
Guy Swann is a popular bitcoiner sponsored by Coinkite, would he qualify as a shill?
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No idea who he is so can't say.
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That's all I needed to know, thanks!
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Many tweets on twitter got deleted.
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and he blocked us on twitter. So it's always somebody else who tells us - hey, you know what nvk is saying about you/us on twitter?
what?
then we try to find it, we're blocked, so we can't see. So either we open a new account or find some other way. and then we can't respond....
it's just a mess.
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Yep. Once again you're describing my experience to the T. Well I'm glad it's not just me.
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Not surprised.
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If they are acting the way they are acting, then it is reasonable to assume they have a reason to be acting that way. It would be pretty easy for them to provide good customer service. Dump Coinkite products until they stop behaving like bad faith actors. If multiple people can't repo the build, its compromised.
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This is totally off topic, but if you want to see toxic, follow Samurai Wallet's Twitter profile.... woof...
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I generally avoid Bitcoin twitter because most of them are unhinged. They all will say some good stuff about Bitcoin and then pepper in their crazy baseless conspiracies in the mix to attack social issues or whatever dumb distraction they feel like going after. Bitcoiners are not so different at gobbling the cock of propaganda and then regurgitating its semen.
That place is rat poison if you ask me.
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I dont disagree in general but that's why I'm intentional about who I follow. Most bitcoiners are shills (IMO), and I avoid them. I only follow those that add value and substance to the discussion. By doing that, my Twitter feed is filled with reasonable tweets.
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yeah, i get you, like fakestoshi suing hodlnaut, and the bitcoin core devs.
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Bought their stuff a while ago but never got around to using it. I guess I like it more as a collector's item. Also have a really hard time trusting the added complexity versus foss multisig.
NVK is an interesting and entertaining figure. He seems to have passion for Bitcoin and his work. I hope he sees value in helping the community verify. NYK and such.
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I really like their approach of over the top security and paranoia so I want them to succeed but none of that trumps the way they've been acting. Their actions speak louder than their claims.
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I love and use Coinkite's products too but agree that I don't always agree with NVK. I don't know if you follow the drama with Foundation Devices, but NVK was not good to them at all. I can find a good article about that if anyone is interested.
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Yep that drama occurred around the same time that I was having trouble reproducing their builds. You can say that everything coalesced to and made me realize Coinkite is not a company I wish to support any further.
You should post the article since someone else in this thread was asking for more details.
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For those wondering the discussion that took place between Foundation Devices and Coinkite/NVK, here is the blog post from the founder of Foundation Devices: https://www.zherbert.com/an-open-letter-to-nvk-and-coldcard/
If anyone has the response, if any, from NVK, I'd be interested in reading that too.
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thanks for your work on this and for the PSA
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It's unfortunate that this even happened. That said, there's a silver lining in that it forced me to really question every claim that even the most popular of vendors makes and as a result, I've learned a lot. From submitting PRs to some other open source projects to stumbling upon the DIY HWW community with DIY Jade and Krux wallets which brought me down a very enjoyable rabbit hole. I almost feel like I should thank Coinkite for forcing me to look elsewhere and see all the other amazing projects that are out there :)
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oh cool. yeah that's a great outcome
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deleted by author
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Sticks and stones...
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