I just got done commenting, wrt Nassim Taleb's assertion that btc is filled with imbeciles, that he's basically right. I've been following this space for a decade, and my perception is that the most amplified voices have gone from smart people who deeply understood important aspects of the world advocating mind-blowing ideas, to mostly idiots parroting the popular orthodoxy. If btc didn't exist they'd be manifesting the same "passion" for something else, with comparable understanding and nuance. This has become so off-putting that I've basically disengaged to preserve my sanity -- my take is that if btc succeeds, it will be in spite of most of its advocates, not because of them.
But now I'm curious if anyone on SN has pointers to something they consider new and worthwhile -- new thinking, from new perspectives, that isn't just another circle jerk by a bagholding acolyte. To give an example, I was briefly excited by Space Boy's thesis, but then, when I actually read it, it became clear how hollow and stupid it was, as people (e.g., Jameson Lopp, Erik Voskuil) have begun to point out. But man, for a second, it felt great.
So: anything legit to be excited about that's not the same old shit?
I know someone, mentioning him before he becomes the next Nobel Prize winner:
guy is on fire
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100%!
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How Bitcoin is changing the world: Powering Bitcoin (Also mining) https://fountain.fm/show/k7jFC0d1eSI3BjDfw7ND
NoKYC Matt Odell, a bit repetitive for an OG maybe: https://fountain.fm/show/p8WM5xdhPOB2YrKmP1Vy
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Kevin Rooke show is great. loads of guests on that show who don't tend to do the rounds on other podcasts because they are business people who are normally busy building things! Also each episode i listen to find myself with more strings to pull on and new books or people to checkout
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Eric Weinstein was asking this on the WBD podcast a while ago. To paraphrase: "What is it you actually want to do [with bitcoin], what is the world you want to build. I'm bored."
Personaly i think Cashu and @calle are on the bleeding edge of practical bitcoin. Whole hidden meta communities/civilizations could pop up with a more mature version of this technology because it's so easy, already launched, and practical.
Erik left twitter for similar reasons.
Crypto took a lot of wind out of the sales, because we realized we are building tools for really dumb people and maybe the state have a reason for their actions (<-joke).
Stacker news and nostr is amazing, this is the concetration of interesting ideas i've been looking for at least.
Unfortunately, getting excited about money is kind of setting yourself up for dissapoinment. When the first trading coin was minted, no one freaked out and started a personality cult around it.
A more mature and stable attitude survives the test of time. You stack, you secure it, and then go and live your life. We can't even know if the future Bitcoin enables is desirable from our limited perspective, it could go wrong in several ways. So build truth, beauty and good today.
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I try to keep up to the developments in the LN space. Fore sure You'll find interesting minds like Kevin Rooke that will give You fresh impulses
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I'd say look more at the code than the speech. Cypherpunks write code. I like podcasts too but mostly when they talk about the new code that's been written.
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Not sure if this is of interest but it does seem in the last year there are some new voices coming through from the political left (to counter some on the right). No judgment just information.
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all the alpha as well as cool fresh voices are on Nostr these days - new ideas, discussions, developments.
It's like a breath of fresh air
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Taleb: "At the height of the disinformation about Covid-19 and the vaccine, a person I respect asked me to intervene..."
This explains his shift, and his vitality and lack of information. A once popular and respected author with good ideas (anti-fragility) is bought and payed for. Hes in bed with the status quo.
Taking what he says as truth is an anti-fragile shit test in and of itself, this might be part of his meta game.
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The smoking gun I knew must have existed. "a person I respect" (for their ability to ruin me).
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:D :D :D :D :D :D
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Just in case, I would look up the definition of "person" in the Black's Law Dictionary ;)
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It's a brand new industry with nascent voices cropping up all the time. In fact, I think Stacker News here is already harboring several of our future up-and-comers, so keep an eye out.
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Yup, his is the place to be, wish i had found it sooner, reddit and twitter are soul crushing.
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Interesting to see how Gridless is building infrastructure using BTC mining to secure loans
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He's not new, but lately I have really been appreciating Erik Cason more and more. I like his vision, and I think everyone would agree it's not the same old shit.
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Also, Bitcoin is changing the world in non-new ways too. Alex Gladstein's artcicles are amazing. So Healing old wounds in society is a valid and exciting aspect of bitcoin worth celebrating. People around the world are economizing and saving their worth without devaluation from opressives states. That is a small victory.
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Gladstein was someone I was very happy to discover when he burst onto the scene. Would love to see some more Gladstein-esque peeps, in whatever field.
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No, nothing has changed recently. Look at maybe Jack Dorsey and Block’s perspective on growing Bitcoin beyond a fad and money making maxhine.
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The world is full of people that just parrot others. This is in every community that exists. This is especially true in the fiat world but it will or maybe already is true in bitcoin. This isn't a bitcoin problem. Now, you are being so vague in your criticism that it is pretty hard to determine what your actual problem is. You mention Taleb who's arguments are VERY weak and obviously personal and not technical. Taleb said recently that the FED is transparent... and bitcoin is no good for money laundering... Dude has lost it. My belief is that he never has really done the work on bitcoin or he's such a statist that if he did he would be opposed to it.
Bitcoin is a tool just as money is a tool. The best and brightest will rise to the top over time but if you ask me the bitcoiners here as well as many podcasts are far more bright and intelligent than the statist fiat world equivalents. Bitcoin was created by cypherpunks, libertarians, and anarchists. It obviously was designed from the perspective of Austrian economics. If you are saying there are a lot of bitcoiners that don't get that... you are right. But if you think the problem with bitcoin is that these crazy people are just dumb then I don't know what to tell you.
Over the years I have learned that I can learn from almost anyone. Even and sometimes especially from people I disagree with. The world is full of parrots. So is bitcoin. The point is, what are they parroting. Lies or truth.
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This is not directed at @elvismercury but this post reminds me of when a statist or progressive discovers bitcoiners are a different crowd. Its always funny to me how people who's world view is the dominate one in corporate America, media and pretty much anywhere they go lose it when they join a small community and find out they are now in the minority for once in their life.
Why isn't bitcoin like every other thing in my life? How can there be all these crazy people here? I think that's what happened to Taleb. Taleb seems like the status quo. He pretty much said as much recently with his comments about the FED and how it is transparent and we can influence it.
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This comment is a decent example of what I'm talking about. "Statist" is such a meaningless term, as if the 99% of planet earth who has no thoughts or opinions about btc forms a conceptual class that you can reason about as if it were a coherent ideology. And yet this is key piece of the lingua franca of btc discussion, recited like a litany.
Zooming out, the truth value of Austrian economics is not the issue; the issue is that everything sensible that can be said about that was said long ago. The body of work introduces no new signal into the discussion. And whatever btc's effects on the world will ultimately be, they will likely be a function of dynamics not captured in the current "btc podcast / Medium / nostr circuit" echo chamber.
I'd like to hear those opinions and perspectives.
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Statist is not a meaningless term. I have no idea why you think this but my guess is that you think anarchism is ridiculous. For those that don't know a statist is someone that believes in the legitimacy of the state, IE nation states. That they exercise their power from a position of legitimacy. The opposite of a statist is an anarchist. Now there are all sorts of places in between these two poles but that's the gist. Many, but not all of the economists from the Austrian school are statists. Bitcoin attracts those that believe the state has far to much power.
As far as the echo chamber goes there are new people learning about anarchism, bitcoin, economics everyday. Just because this is all old hat to you doesn't mean it adds no value. Most people including me were not educated in these topics in government schools, media, or popular culture. Complaining that you hear to much of this fringe perspective on the world is a bit silly if you ask me.
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You're right, "statist" is not a meaningless term. Its near-zero utility for saying anything non-trivial about the 99% of people on the planet who could be technically considered "statists" is my grievance with it.
Put another way: almost everyone who currently has, or ever will, adopt btc in any measurable way will be a statist -- the appetite for anarchism is, and will continue to be, nearly zero, especially by people who've ever got within rock-throwing distance of actual anarchism. And yet if you randomly pluck from the public discussion on btc in most places, you'd get the impression that "statist" is a rough simile for "pedophile" and "idiot" and that the case for anarchism as a viable means of human organization has been proved.
If that's where you want to make your intellectual home, cool, but you'll be living in a pretty tiny house. I'm interested in finding people living in bigger houses.
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I think you may be equating two different things here. Evangelism and community. Bitcoin naturally attracts many like-minded people. People that as you point out are a small minority of their communities world wide. Much of what you call an echo chamber (which is fair in many cases) is just like-minded people sharing knowledge with those interested in learning more about economics, political thought, and bitcoin. I see no issue with this. The number of people discussing the ideas of liberty, freedom, etc is still small but it is growing IMO. You are correct about many viewing "statists" as idiots but that is not me. This is just immaturity or bravado and it is not unique to bitcoiners. Try listening to any "mainstream" political person talk to a libertarian or anarchist if you want to see the same attitude.
Now, on the evangelism side I agree with you that calling someone a name is not effective. I know a significant libertarians and anarchists and not one of them behaves in this way. I very rarely bring up any of these ideas with people unless they ask or the conversation naturally flows in the direction. Bitcoin will grow in adoption because of utility not ideology. I believe this is also true for the downfall of the state's dominance. Now I am under no illusion that I will see this but I think it will happen. Not because people are convinced but because the better system will win.
As far as you last comment. I would rather have an intellectual home that I have questioned, tested, and know than be with the crowd. My home (my mind) is mine. That said, my home is a part of a community filled with people from many different perspectives. These are valuable perspectives even if they are not aligned with mine.
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I think this is well-articulated and I appreciate how you're engaging with me.
Maybe how I should have opened this whole thread relates to your last paragraph. I think there really is something important to btc, but it's such a giant and foreign thing that I want to understand it as fully as possible to know how to allocate my beliefs about it, which is a consequential thing to do, since it essentially means allocating my money to it. My approach, then, is to seek out as much info as I can, from as many perspectives, and really challenge my model of reality, since the stakes are high.
This is very hard to do now, since so much ambient discussion springs from a very small cluster of related ideologies. I'd hazard a guess that most people I come across on Twitter, or who write thought-pieces on how Austrian econ is The Way, have never actually read any of it; and even fewer people have read other perspectives. Rather, they've just absorbed a certain tribal narrative and now wear the proper flair.
This is the opposite of the approach a person should take in trying to get at the truth. Which is why I'm frustrated.
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I appreciate your engagement in discussion as well. I think I better understand where you are coming from now than I did in the original post. I don't doubt you are correct about many not reading things for themselves, I mean that is pretty much the status quo for most subjects. I would be careful though to not assume folks that use these catch phrases don't have more depth or value to add. I think what you are describing is very similar to how I lost interest in the tech press / podcasts years ago. It was just the same thing over and over again but when I was new to working in technology it wasn't old to me. I learned a lot but I grew and needed to move on. Maybe you can be one of these folks that takes a look at bitcoin from new and different perspectives and contexts. I am very interested in the perspectives of people coming from non-western nations and how they think about these things. How people in oppressive states have been able to use bitcoin, or what issues they have with it. Gladstein talks about this a lot. As you mentioned I'm interested in the history of money and how it developed. Money is something very few understand. I would say I'm still learning about it myself.
I would not label myself as a maxi but I understand the tactics they use online. I also understand why so many bitcoiners focus on these "old news" topics. We have new bitcoiners coming everyday that don't get why bitcoin was created. They just see $$$$ and wanna piece. They may not dive deep but they likely didn't dive deep into the status quo either.
Just a few more thoughts.
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What I want to see more of is people taking action vs. talking about theory and when will bitcoin moon or when will enter famous name here get on board. Learn to use bitcoin. Set up a node. Set up a lightning node. Learn how to use privacy tools. Learn about to teach others because if we are right about bitcoin many are going to need help. Not only that but this knowledge will be valuable for us and those we love.
During the pandemic I realized that I wasn't truly living my vision for the future. Not really I mean. I can't tell you what that means for you, only myself. I for one am tired of the political folks that are all talk and now action. They cry about the state taking their wealth but take zero action to prevent it. They complain about things that they can improve without a revolution or change in leadership. It is easy to complain but a waste of time.
If you believe bitcoin is the way forward use it. Learn as much as you can so when people are ready to learn you can teach them. I bet there are people ready to learn around you already. I know that has been the case for me. I'm not pushy about it. I don't act like a jerk. I just talk and try to answer questions.
You obviously don't get outside much.
Get outside of your circlejerk, you statist cuck, go out into the wilderness alone, and tell me how much of an urge you feel to murder the first person you come across, you fucking statist 🤡🤡🤡
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Let's say there aren't any. Nothing but bag holding acolytes from here on. What's your next move? Sell it all and join Taleb in the bitcoin-haters club?
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I shouldn't have mentioned Taleb, he's irrelevant except that I was responding to a post about his claim about idiots. I don't hate btc, I've devoted thousands of hours to it, which is the whole reason I'm irritated by the current envt.
My next move? Continue my current minimal level of engagement, I guess, poking my head up from time to time to see if any interesting people or thinking have turned up. (At a minimum, I'm excited for the book from the philosophers, which is supposed to be end of 2023?
Seems like there should be more than just that to look forward to, though.)
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There doesn't seem like there's much to say about Bitcoin that hasn't already been said. I think we're in for a long stretch where people just continuously rehash all the insights form the past 14 years. And the OGs will point out there's nothing new under the sun, and this will repeat and get more and more annoying as the years go by. This is all inevitable as a new phenomenon matures but I don't see it as a bad thing. It's like when a new romance starts and it's all hot and heavy, but then over times things calm down and settle into the comfortable routine of an old married couple.
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Strong disagree that there's not much else to say. Man, there's things at the very foundation of what it means for something to acquire value de novo that haven't been said in a way that's relevant to btc! Instead, we get yet another hot take of "money solves the coincidence of wants" blah blah blah, but literally zero has been written drawing from other traditions on the history of money, e.g., sociological, anthropological.
It would be actual news to most bitcoiners, I expect, that there is a robust and extensive literature on money that is (imo) much more relevant to the unique trajectory of btc monetizing out of pure abstraction than is the Austrian-derived commodity-money story -- which is a delicious irony given that most actual Austrian economists think btc is bullshit due to violations of the regression theorem -- but all these accounts are gaping holes in the btc mythology.
This is the echo chamber that I'm talking about. It's possible that you (not you in particular, @jgbtc, but 'you' as in 'the hypothetical reader') think that Carl Menger said everything sensible that would ever need saying about money and the origin of value, but most of the world does not share that opinion, and most of the world is who has yet to care about btc. Those would be hugely valuable perspectives to include in the mix as we try to understand what this thing is and could be and how it could get there.
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Bingo
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🟠🟣⚡️📖🫡 🐐 For Bitcoin , we dont have to go far. we have China right at our nose who banned it few years back. And Nostr based app called Damus which got banned within a week in AppStore. China knows how to control every individuals within their state. For people, connecting dot of ideas comes from many different angles or modes to collections. For me, i was born n raised in refugee. i know what are the things that scares Chinese leaders. FREEDOM..... BITCOIN AND NOSTR ARE BUILD FOR FREEDOM, AS INTERNET PROTOCOLS FOR DATA SHARING...
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Certainly biased, maybe arrogant, but I'd say my stuff https://heaviside.substack.com/archive
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define: "popular orthodoxy"
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I'll try: anyone who spoke at bitcoin miami this year or has a podcast as good a start as any...
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