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52 sats \ 10 replies \ @nullcount 11 Sep 2023 \ parent \ on: Utxo Dealership: forthcoming BTC privacy tool & winner of Tabconf 2023 Hackathon bitcoin
Can you elaborate on the decision to use Nostr for a "privacy" app? Wouldn't using this app entail broadcasting details about the swap to third parties? I get that the note is encrypted, but why leak data about who is messaging who? What does nostr solve here? Is it just easier than using a DB for hackathon prototype?
Nostr is certainly easier to use in a hackathon than a real database, but there are additional factors: who should host the database? Nick and I don't plan to do it, it would make us a central point of failure. Censors from various countries could easily serve use takedown notices if they don't like the offers in our database -- we can avoid that by simply not having one. We'll make the website optional too, because having a single, easily shuttered frontend is another obvious footgun.
Each miner can store their own database of offers and disclose them on whatever media they want. That is probably the most robust solution, but I hope using nostr for message transport in this prototype sets a standard for interopetability so that these databases can fill a global orderbook rather than create a dozen silos.
Also, to reduce metadata leaks, we aren't having anyone sign in using nostr. No one's identity is needed for this because the buyer and the seller don't have to trust one another. Your transactions should not ever be tied to your real nostr identity, so we just don't have you or the miner sign in. Instead, from nostr's perspective, each order is only associated with an ephemeral keypair created when you visit the site and only used for one purchase, then discarded forever.
Moreover, we'll also put up a warning message if you visit the site on a clearnet browser, reminding you that if you don't hide your ip address e.g. via tor or a vpn, you'll reveal your use of our tool to your ISP and anyone they choose to disclose that information to.
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It's very endearing that Nostr is so bad at its designed use case, but so useful for many other things.
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Thanks for the explain. Especially about using newly generated nostr keys per session. Makes total sense. I'm keen to dive in.
It doesn't have to be a coinbase output right, could trade for any (dirty) utxo right?
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We will probably add a "certified pre-owned" section where regular people can sell not-new utxos
It might be useful if someone who doesn't think they have the time or skill to use coinjoins still wants to have some coinjoined utxos
They can just purchase them instead of doing an actual coinjoin themselves
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This should use less block space than coinjoin.
Also, no coordinator fees.
However, the history of a not-new utxo is preserved, unlike coinjoin.
But there is still value in trading for a utxo with different history as opposed to no history, or obfuscated history. Especially if its more space efficient than alternative trustless swaps.
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Agreed. I have been looking for a way to trustlessly swap doxxic UTXOs for a long time.
I already call this "SwapDox" when I explain the tool that I am looking for.
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today I added a section where you can sell your toxic change:
I know the interface is a mess but give it time! I'm working on it
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Awesome work. I have been looking for this exact feature for years so I am really looking forward to experimenting with this.
Miners don't know how badly they need this. When this becomes widespread, pleb miners will be doing much better than they are now.
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decentralization is the main component of this whole thing. why centralize when we don't have to
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Because privacy is the main component of UTXO Dealership and encrypted nostr messages do not hide the public keys who are messaging, nor the date/time of sending the message. Typically, you don't broadcast details about private dealings on a censorship resistant public network. I'd rather a single server had incriminating evidence than broadcast that evidence to hundreds of servers. You might be better off swapping UTXOs for privacy shitcoins with ring signatures or other tech that obfuscates the addresses, then swapping back to BTC to get a new UTXO. Less metadata stored and more resistant to timing analysis.
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