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21 sats \ 13 replies \ @dtonon OP 21 Sep 2023 \ parent \ on: A kit to help local businesses start using Bitcoin bitcoin
Thanks @DarthCoin, good stuff, as usual.
I think we should also start to address the accounting/tax point: a lot of small business are worried about this and are discouraged to use Bitcoin by their accountants (who are totally ignorant of the subject). Do you have any info/ideas/suggestion about this?
Bitcoin is cash money in any accounting. No more no less. Done. Why complicate it when is so fucking simple.
The accountants are really idiots, always complicating things.
You use BTC only as a payment system, like visa or paypal. That's it. You do not have to do any changes in your accounting or management software. All your sales tickets/invoices are expressed in local currency, you are just taking the value of that invoice in sats. That's all, in your accounting you declare the sale in that currency NOT in sats.
The accountant, taxman or whatever don't even have to know that you take sats. Is not their damn business.
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That's all, in your accounting you declare the sale in that currency NOT in sats.
Unlucky is not so simple everywhere.
In Italy, and I suppose many other EU countries, when you get a payment you have to register it and prove the payment channel. So give to the accountant the converted value is not enough. Then if you own bitcoin as a business you have to keep a separate balance and bitcoin is managed as a foreign currency.
I know, we should change the rules. Step by step.
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Who stop you to not say a word that you took sats and say it was cash?
LOL sometimes people are such pussies...
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You missed the point.
In Italy, if I have sold you a service/product I must produce the invoice; the invoice must be linked to a payment record, usually a bank statement.
If I'm payed by sats I have to say it, otherwise I am fined. Plain and simple.
Because that, I think we need to offer a clean view of the legal situation by country, explaining how Bitcoin can be correctly managed in a standard accounting system.
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If I'm payed by sats I have to say it, otherwise I am fined.
All depends WHERE you position yourself in this pyramid
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I will repeat: bitcoin is cash. Is nobody's business what am I doing with my cash. That's it.
Keep living in that cage and you will never be free.
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Clearly, we have different backgrounds and so different ideas. We both want Bitcoin success, we just have different strategies.
Instead of an individual action against the rules, I prefer to spread a collective movement that moves legally towards Bitcoin adoption, and eventually will bring forward a change in the law. In fact Bitcoin can lives without any problem with the current rules, but will inevitably end up changing them.
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Although I'd hate to suggest it, I wonder if using a service like OpenNode/IBEX to convert immediately back into fiat would eliminate the accounting hassle of staying entirely in bitcoin? Or, they'd at least be able to provide data that the business' accountants would understand.
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Yes, would eliminate the "hassle", but this way we are going nowhere.
Maybe it is better to let the business owner manually convert to fiat, so he can decrease the conversion ratio when he trusts Bitcoin more as a safe store of value.
This article, recently shared on SN, talks also about this: https://graduallythensuddenly.xyz/pay-me-in-bitcoin-theory/
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Going back to fiat is lame and useless. NEVER recommend to a merchant to do such thing!
Damn it, going back to fiat will never create that Bitcoin circular economy!
https://darthcoin.substack.com/p/how-bitcoin-will-save-the-world
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I was chatting with a local bison rancher about accepting bitcoin and he mentioned that he would love to accept bitcoin (via Lightning), but needs to be able to pay bills in USD (feed, equipment, etc). So what am I supposed to do? Tell him that he shouldn't do that? It is all bitcoin or nothing? Or show him ways to accept bitcoin and then he can choose to convert it back to USD to pay for those bills?? The former would mean that he won't accept bitcoin, while the later means that he will accept bitcoin and be part of developing the bitcoin circular economy.
Until the places that he buys his feed from and gets his equipment also take bitcoin, there will always be a need to convert back to fiat. Yes, I'd love a circular bitcoin economy, but it can't go from nothing to circular economy as quickly if there aren't these (temporary) intermediary steps.
If also showing businesses how to convert back to fiat means that they will actually start accepting bitcoin, so be it. It won't be my recommendation, but it is still reality.
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Simple: he will find another suppliers that accept Bitcoin or convince them to accept.
THIS is how you start the bitcoin circular economy and you NEVER go back to fiat.
If you do not do this, you will NEVER escape from fiat slavery, no matter what water you drink to get drunk...
FIAT DELENDA EST - watch that presentation by Jimmy Song.
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In an ideal world, this is definitely the way to do a bitcoin circular economy. Screw anyone not accepting bitcoin.
We can all agree that the ideal scenario would be: I pay for bison from him in bitcoin and he pays for his supplies with bitcoin. Done.
Other two more realistic options for him:
- He takes bitcoin, keeps some to save/spend, converts some to fiat as needed. or 2) He chooses to not take bitcoin at all because he needs the fiat to buy supplies.
Option 1 would at least be a step forward in the right direction. It would be better than him not taking bitcoin at all. If I force the ideal scenario then I am stuck not being able to buy bison with bitcoin.
I bet forcing the ideal scenario would actually be possible in certain parts of the world that have a fiat currency that is hyperinflating rather than the USD "we slowly steal your value" inflation.
I'll check out that video. Thanks.
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