Don't get too upset about the bulls***. BITCOIN is the TROJAN HORSE. \ stacker news ~bitcoin

Don't get too upset about the bulls***. BITCOIN is the TROJAN HORSE.

5296 sats \ 58 comments \ @birdeye21 24 Oct 2023 bitcoin

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All these new developments in Bitcoin are unsurprisingly creating a lot of great discussion among bitcoiners.

Many rightfully call out a lot of the BS that these new developments can foster within Bitcoin, but I also think some aren't seeing the forest for the trees, so to speak.

We all want hyperbitcoinization.

But what does that entail, exactly? At what point is the world no longer "fiat" and sufficiently "bitcoinized"?

In my opinion, Bitcoin is just now rolling through the gates of Troy.

Bitcoin's tech is reaching an inflection point, making it easier than ever for anyone to build on. Unfortunately, that also means shitcoins on Bitcoin and other fiat nonsense are easier than ever to implement.

Coinciding are the numerous spot ETF approvals on the way (more "bullshit"), establishing Bitcoin's presence in the mainstream financial world. You're technically always early to Bitcoin thanks to NgU (actually NgD) technology, but buying Bitcoin post spot-ETF approval is probably one of the first major moments in its history where you could be considered "late" to Bitcoin; if you didn't frontrun the institutions.

Whether we like it or not, we're living in the weird fiat-Bitcoin hybrid timeline that Bitcoin inevitably has to go through if hyperbitcoinization is to take place. I know it sucks; We can't just flip a switch and jump to a new monetary system overnight.

(Okay, maybe the suddenly stage will happen overnight, but for now, we have to embrace the gradually part.)

And while we're gradually on the way there, I think it's important to consider:

I know, not everything is good for Bitcoin. Obviously a global crackdown on Bitcoin instead of what's (probably) going to happen wouldn't be good. Of course shitcoining on Bitcoin isn't good.

But with every perceived negative I think comes a greater positive to focus on:

Global regulatory crackdown gives Bitcoin the ultimate test to prove its value to the world. The harder they they try to control it the quicker it slips away from their grasp.
And some may not agree, but shitcoining on Bitcoin is likely a natural step in Bitcoin's evolution. We're creating all kinds of financial assets (and not so) on Bitcoin. If it's gonna consume the financial system and all else, I'd assume that includes whatever irrelevant market share the crypto market tries to hold onto over time.

This stuff is coming to Bitcoin whether we like it or not. Bitcoin doesn't care about you.

Yes, a lot of it may be shitcoin-adjacent. A lot is just straight up shitcoinery. There are indeed active enemies of Bitcoin trying to infect it with nonsense.

Fiat boomers have likened Bitcoin to rat poison. And in a way, it is: Bitcoin is killing off fiat rats all around the world. But from another perspective, Bitcoin is the cure to what's already been poisoned.

Bitcoin is probably gonna get filled with loads of fiat junk over the coming years, and that is only natural. Bitcoin was birthed into a sick economy. Bitcoin's immune system is being tested.

And if you think it's already bad, just wait until Bitcoin is fueling the mEtAvErSe economy too (I mean, this wacky western LN stacker station here is just an early stage baby of that, right???).

Yep. It's gonna get cringe as a biological human enjoyer of the natural world. GO GET MORE SUN.

But despite the wild weird ride that Bitcoin's on; Don't worry. We're bitcoiners. We believe in it. We believe in decentralization. We believe in consensus of the many, not the few. We believe it's a fundamentally better decision-making system than the manipulated mess we live in today.

So, lean in.

Yes, stablecoins are arriving to Bitcoin. At last! We can get humanity further away from physical money and closer to digital money. An inevitable step, if hyperbitcoinization is to happen.
Yes, shitcoins are being built on Bitcoin. At last! We can suck the lifeblood out of altcoins at an even faster rate. An inevitable step, if hyperbitcoinization is to happen.

"But don't these developments just exacerbate fiat problems on Bitcoin, which is what we're trying to avoid here, right?"

That's why Bitcoin is the Trojan Horse.

We welcome shitcoiners, nocoiners, and all into Bitcoin. Graciously offer it as a freedom protocol to create freely with. Unconditionally support anyone's right to do smart and stupid things with it. Like the internet.

But what the shitcoiners and all fiat statists don't realize -- they're ushering in their own demise.

Just as we make Bitcoin more accessible and palatable to every facet of the world and all of its 8 billion individuals

Just as Bitcoin acquires enough prominence to dominate the world's economic activity

Just as Bitcoin proves that much of today's financial overhead isn't necessary

Is the "suddenly" moment that everyone realizes:

Any "fiat" incentives that new Bitcoin developments may support will die out via starvation (or turn into something fkn cool i dont know really) along with the rest of the fiat world. it's just a slow bleed out of demand as Bitcoin's renewed incentive structure points human activity elsewhere.

To a bigger and better world. Focused on things a little more basic than money.

Like c'mon guys, really? Money? Apes... All of you..

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609 sats \ 20 replies \ @nerd2ninja 24 Oct 2023

Anything that is bad for people I am going to fight off. Stablecoins are just company scrip still rehypothecated dollars but without the FDIC bailouts.

Shitcoins are just VC fluff to gain exit liquidity

I don't know if you know this, but the strategy behind arguing with someone on the internet is either, to gain new insight into how people like the one you're talking to tend to think, or to make a show for people who are lurking and watching your debate. You never argue with someone to convince the other person, you're just wasting your time.

So the point of making a stink about this shit, is in the hopes that newbies watching the hullabaloo, will stay away from the scam. So its especially important right now to rally against a Bitcoin ETF so that less people actually buy into the ETF and in learning why ETF bad, learn about self-custody.

131 sats \ 4 replies \ @birdeye21 OP 24 Oct 2023

I fully agree with making a big stink out of it as I mentioned, it's great that bitcoiners rightfully call out the BS and try to keep newcomers away.

It's necessary and the right thing to do, don't wanna suggest we don't do that. Unfortunately, though, I think the reality that many bitcoiners are gonna have to come to terms with is that a lot of adoption will likely come through this shitcoining fiat nonsense.

We'll build countless fiat-style financial tools with Bitcoin, and while it may not be "right" in the short term, the long term trend I think shines even brighter. This weird blend of fiat and bitcoin is BOUND to happen, and it IS happening. Doesn't mean you have to take part in it, but better to get somewhat comfortable with it, because it's gonna get a lot worse.

The good thing is that all these fiat incentives provide more opportunities to learn about the virtues of Bitcoin and honest money.

Bitcoin ETFs are bad, but if they never existed, like you said, people would never learn why they're bad, and why self custody matters. Bitcoin adoption is brutally fair. They will find out the easy way (through listening to bitcoiners) or the hard way. We can't just dream and wish for a smooth adoption process that's devoid of the fiat reality we are living in.

Fiat is simply just more familiar to most people. Doesn't make it right, but if we want Bitcoin to truly weed out fiat, it's probably gonna have to do it from within. Like the HORSE!!

202 sats \ 3 replies \ @nerd2ninja 24 Oct 2023

Doesn't mean you have to take part in it, but better to get somewhat comfortable with it, because it's gonna get a lot worse.

I won't tell you why I'm like this, but I have it drilled into me to never be comfortable. Comfort is death. I'm comfortable with being uncomfortable and I'm uncomfortable with being comfortable lmao.

226 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 24 Oct 2023

Comfort is death. I'm comfortable with being uncomfortable and I'm uncomfortable with being comfortable lmao.

That reminded me of this:

Whenever anything SUCKS, I like it.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @nerd2ninja 24 Oct 2023

Embrace the suck. It doesn't get easier, you get better

60 sats \ 0 replies \ @birdeye21 OP 24 Oct 2023

Haha I understand. There's a lot of merit to that!

Just think the negative energy from bitcoiners (not saying you just in general) can get better channeled towards education rather than frustration

53 sats \ 14 replies \ @ek 24 Oct 2023

So its especially important right now to rally against a Bitcoin ETF so that less people actually buy into the ETF and in learning why ETF bad, learn about self-custody.

I see. Maybe we need to differentiate between "ETF approval" vs "people actually using the ETF". I think the approval is good since it sends a good signal: bitcoin is reaching "escape velocity". But yes, people shouldn't actually use the ETF. It's a signal to use bitcoin.

52 sats \ 13 replies \ @nerd2ninja 24 Oct 2023

Be a random for a minute. Pretend you're one of the people who doesn't really mess with Bitcoin. All of a sudden, you see a Bitcoin ETF approval and you think that means its safe to use. How absolutely confused are you gonna be, seeing all these Bitcoiners getting all riled up and excited about a Bitcoin ETF approval, who then tell you that for some reason you shouldn't actually buy the ETF (assuming that second message will even get to this person in question, because the ETF excitement is so loud)

110 sats \ 5 replies \ @birdeye21 OP 24 Oct 2023

I get what you're saying, but I think if all bitcoiners were making just as much noise against an ETF as they are for one right now, then normies would still be equally (if not even more) confused about Bitcoin

53 sats \ 4 replies \ @nerd2ninja 24 Oct 2023

At least that confusing would result in an amplified signal of the right message.

60 sats \ 3 replies \ @birdeye21 OP 24 Oct 2023

True. At the end of the day doesn't really matter what bitcoiners say, I have to keep in mind that the internet is a lot noisier than the real world lol

34 sats \ 2 replies \ @nerd2ninja 24 Oct 2023

I think it matters what Bitcoiners say in spite of the noise, but it do be pretty noisy

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @birdeye21 OP 24 Oct 2023

the internet really does wash out the value of words, doesn't it. You can walk away from a computer way more confused about a topic than you began if you're presented with the wrong things.

Most people need to touch see feel Bitcoin somehow (painfully or not) to understand it

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52 sats \ 6 replies \ @ek 24 Oct 2023

How absolutely confused are you gonna be, seeing all these Bitcoiners getting all riled up and excited about a Bitcoin ETF approval, who then tell you that for some reason you shouldn't actually buy the ETF (assuming that second message will even get to this person in question, because the ETF excitement is so loud)

Just as confused as everyone else who got into bitcoin at any point. Or should I say crypto?

My stance is that we all start somewhere, so people buying into the bitcoin ETFs is better than nothing at all because as I said: we all started somewhere right? None of us became toxic bitcoin maxis over night, I would say. Except @DarthCoin maybe, lol

31 sats \ 5 replies \ @DarthCoin 24 Oct 2023

When I started with BTC (2012), none of these crap ever existed. Was just Bitcoin. Of course I wasn't distracted by shitcoins and scams.

Is all about how and when you started and keep your focus only on what matters.

10 sats \ 4 replies \ @ek 24 Oct 2023

Then you're special but I got started with Coinbase and I thought it's an investment.

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @DarthCoin 24 Oct 2023

I never opened a Coinbase acc for me. First time I saw it, something told me that is fishy.

In 2015 a friend of mine came to me happy that he opened a Conbase acc. I told him to be careful that Conbase is the enemy of Bitcoin and should close it and use many other sources to get some BTC.

He scream at me that I am crazy and only spread FUD etc bla bla... Later I sent him this list with points about Conbase...

Only after years he came back to me and said: you were right all along, Conbase is the enemy.

Like I keep doing nowadays, warning people about many other scams and dangers. Why? Because I have a very good sense of detecting bullshit and I pay attention to many details.

11 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 24 Oct 2023

But the question is: would he have gotten into bitcoin at all without Conbase?

I'm not saying they are not the enemy, but they are also doing us some favors on accident.

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186 sats \ 22 replies \ @siggy47 24 Oct 2023

I appreciate your optimism. I agree with you regarding shit coins, but I see these spot ETFs as fiat's last gasp Trojan Horse attack against bitcoin. Like Snowden and Farrington have warned, the old rotten financial system can coopt and control bitcoin as it did gold. You're right. It's a test for bitcoin. How many of us won't ultimately sell out to BlackRock if we are offered wealth beyond our wildest dreams in the here and now?

153 sats \ 6 replies \ @birdeye21 OP 24 Oct 2023

Bitcoin was designed for these attacks, and if anything, i see spot etfs as a massive signal to us that Bitcoin is trending where we want it to go. The attacks from the powers that be only validate that.

The way I see it, if Bitcoin hyperbitcoinizes, that implies massive flight of capital out of fiat vehicles, including ETFs. When everyone is dumping legacy assets to pile into Bitcoin, will the market not at some point price in the true value of ETFs (ZERO)?

How we actually tangibly solve the paper bitcoin problem is beyond me, but if Bitcoin really does unlock a truly free market, then I'd like to think we can send BlackRock into a withdrawal spiral crisis like FTX and all the rest trying to print paper Bitcoin

53 sats \ 5 replies \ @siggy47 24 Oct 2023

Never underestimate the laziness of most people, and their willingness to follow the crowd. You think everyone will be using self custody rather than buying shares with the accounts they already have? Pension funds, retirement accounts? It's hard enough getting people to withdraw their bitcoin from coinbase.

33 sats \ 1 reply \ @SpaceHodler 25 Oct 2023

It's hard enough getting people to withdraw their bitcoin from coinbase. cancel

It's impossible to withdraw from your pension and buy bitcoin, unless you're 57 (in my country anyway). So yes, people will be buying the ETF, because it's the only way to make that inaccessible money work for you, no matter how hardcore a bitcoiner you are.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 25 Oct 2023

I get your point. People do that now buying MicroStrategy, which is a de facto bitcoin fund, or GBTC. What I was saying is that your average person would not want to self custody even if they can.

33 sats \ 2 replies \ @birdeye21 OP 24 Oct 2023

No i am betting that the vast majority in the short term will get their Bitcoin tied up with custodians. Fiat will "infect" Bitcoin. Maybe for our entire lives this will be the case.

But in the long term, I'm also betting that wont really matter if Bitcoin is to win like we think it will. I'm fully (maybe delusionaly) aboard the wave that we'll have the entire world in control of their own money.

But we're still in the dark ages of Bitcoin right now. How the tech developments play out to get us there I have no clue, but it's clear that UX is trending easier and easier. If people are that lazy, then Bitcoin UX will meet that level of laziness.

Have to keep in mind, everything I'm saying is assuming the conclusion: Bitcoin will hyperbitcoinize.

If that's to happen, then we'll get these other kinks worked out.

Whether or not that happens in our lifetimes is another question, but that is (one of) the end goal of bitcoin. Get the middleman out of the money. Period.

57 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 24 Oct 2023

We're on the same page regarding the future. I wish I could stop thinking about that Keynes (of all people) quote: "In the long run we're all dead."

33 sats \ 0 replies \ @birdeye21 OP 24 Oct 2023

Yep. Cant ignore the problems we have to solve with bitcoin now, but the good thing is that they give us more adoption points and opportunities to learn

155 sats \ 6 replies \ @ek 24 Oct 2023

the old rotten financial system can coopt and control bitcoin as it did gold

No it can't. Gold is a shiny rock you can't transport a lot of safely over distance. So paper certificates were created.

If people use paper bitcoin, it's their own mistake. Using Bitcoin directly for everyday payments is absolutely possible and in reach for anyone.

Using paper bitcoin is probably even worse than using bitcoin directly since you can't pay for stuff with paper bitcoin.

132 sats \ 5 replies \ @siggy47 24 Oct 2023

Sure bitcoin is better than gold in so many ways, and it will be harder to rehypothecate-just not hard enough to overcome human laziness.

71 sats \ 4 replies \ @ek 24 Oct 2023

Yes, maybe I am underestimating humans and their stupidity. But I think bitcoin has good chances to make it obvious that you want to hold bitcoin, not paper bitcoin. Education is key.

138 sats \ 3 replies \ @siggy47 24 Oct 2023

Agreed. I'm doing a lot of soul searching about this myself. I keep thinking about that saying "don't wish for something so hard, you might just get it." Now I know why long term hodlers say they prefer bear markets. My concern: Do I have the balls not to sell if the price goes crazy?

238 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 24 Oct 2023

Do I have the balls not to sell if the price goes crazy?

Bitcoin is money, use it like that :) It's yours, ignore people telling you not to sell.

Imo, it depends on what you sell it for. Value is subjective.

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury 24 Oct 2023

Under-rated comment. Btc exists so that you can buy stuff with it that you want. Talking about it like it's the reified essence of the divine Good is almost certain to lead to bad things.

32 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 24 Oct 2023

I want to continue buying with bitcoin rather than selling for fiat.

0 sats \ 7 replies \ @9ener1c 24 Oct 2023

I don’t think there’s any strong evidence that the existing system can coopt and control bitcoin.

What they can do is build a bitcoin investment vehicle that is attractive enough to the average investor and is connected well to the existing system such that the fed gets their taxes and can go after money launderers — which I realize is ineffective, but it keeps these people in their jobs and their agency funded, which is where the incentive comes from.

All this does is push up the BTC price and incentivize the Fed to ensure those funds keep bringing in the tax dollars.

It doesn’t stop us continuing to promote holding one’s own keys, and building better tools to help everyone transact safely and easily.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @siggy47 24 Oct 2023

Here's a hypothetical that can cause me to lose sleep: The US is going into debt to fund a war, so begins to take advantage of its reserve currency status. Other countries realize that the US is suppressing the gold price. Nixon removes the link between gold and the dollar. Chaos ensues since the reserve currency is backed by nothing. The U.S. finds a new commodity-oil. It makes deals to ensure oil is denominated in dollars. Wars are fought to defend this link. Fast forward-the U.S. is losing control of oil's dollar link. It needs a new commodity link. Here's where bitcoin comes in. Larry Fink is well connected to the government. Bitcoin's price is already denominated in dollar terms. The most important stable coins are dollar based. The U.S. government owns a tremendous amount of bitcoin. Bitcoin can be used as the new commodity link to keep the worldwide dollar ponzi afloat. Please poke holes in my nightmare.

33 sats \ 5 replies \ @9ener1c 24 Oct 2023

I think the main question I’d have is what maintains this petrodollar style ‘commodity link’? Oil is a physical asset that runs out as it’s used with relatively few major providers, that can be bought off (with military support in the case of the petrodollar).

In what way is bitcoin similar? In my view, it’s materially different:

it doesn’t run out when used, mining bitcoin is only superficially similar to oil production
miners can be in any jurisdiction. Oil (or gold) production is very centralized
unlike oil or gold, bitcoin can cross borders in massive amounts instantly and invisibly, which makes it hard to exert physical control over

.. and therefore cannot be weaponized in the same way.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @siggy47 24 Oct 2023

We can point out the differences between the three all day. Most bitcoin has already been mined. A massive price appreciation would cause almost all the "diamond hands" to sell to captured entities like etfs. Your points about cross border payments, centralized mining, etc are all valid. It's just that after the confiscation it will be quibbling about crumbs (newly mined bitcoin)

33 sats \ 3 replies \ @9ener1c 24 Oct 2023

Confiscation is about the only valid method I see. But that’s difficult to imagine in todays world - it’s very different from the one in which it was achieved in the USA with gold.

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @siggy47 24 Oct 2023

I'm sorry. I shouldn't have used that term. I didn't mean literal confiscation. I meant basically bribing all the self custody holders like us with an enormous price appreciation. In mafia terms-make us an offer we can't refuse.

33 sats \ 1 reply \ @9ener1c 24 Oct 2023

Ah, ok.

It just seems to me that the US holding some amount of real BTC, while supporting Bitcoin investment vehicles (even if ‘paper’) further legitimizes bitcoin as a commodity and increases the market cap , and in turn helps stabilize its value in time.

I suppose it might bolster the dollar at least for some time, but I wouldn’t be too concerned about that personally. Is that a nightmare to you or do you foresee the dollar somehow remaining perennially due to this new scheme of the government and Blackrock? If so, I’m still unclear as to precisely how that will be achieved.

It doesn’t stop us holding it and transacting with it, ultimately, and anything that fails to do that is really supporting it.

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111 sats \ 4 replies \ @DarthCoin 24 Oct 2023

Just one question for you: would you accept CBDC for your work / products / services? Or you will say, "no thanks, only Bitcoin" ?

110 sats \ 2 replies \ @birdeye21 OP 24 Oct 2023

absolutely not lol

this wasnt a "let's adopt fiat" post, it's a "bitcoin in a fiat world is going to have fiat people doing fiat things with it, temporarily though" post

32 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 24 Oct 2023

It really doesn't matter what fiat people do... is all about your compliance. So you better be prepared for that day when you really have to say "no, no CBDC, only BTC". This is all that matter, how you stand your ground.

Nowadays, is still easy to say "I will not accept CBDC" but when you will be put in front of a survival situation then you will not be anymore so brave. I hope you will be.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @birdeye21 OP 24 Oct 2023

For sure, have to stand our ground. But bitcoiners also have to remember: Bitcoin is decentralized. It doesn't give a fk about you. If there's something you dont like on bitcoin, too bad -- someone else does.

The best we can do is use these shitcoin and fiat tactics to educate ourselves and others on what's right and where Bitcoin's timeline is at

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Natalia 24 Oct 2023

I feel like you can either build something for enslaved people but need to use the salve money and follow the rules ; or earn freedom money and live a free life.

I'm building a fun project and it's accept Bitcoin only 🫡 I don't know if it will work, but def worth trying, and I would gain new experience anyway!

70 sats \ 2 replies \ @cryotosensei 24 Oct 2023

How nice it is to read this on my way to work. I enjoyed the personification of Bitcoin - imagining it to have an immune system made your arguments easier to visualise and conceptualise

I’m afraid I got to ask. What’s NgD?

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @birdeye21 OP 25 Oct 2023

Number go Down technology

The reality is that BTC is the stablecoin

1 BTC = 1 BTC

Everything else trends down in value against it over the long run

NgU simplifies what’s really going on, it doesn’t matter if the $$ price of bitcoin is going up — that’s true of all assets in fiatville. What matters is how value trends against bitcoin (TO ZERO)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @cryotosensei 25 Oct 2023

Thanks for the explanation! Indeed fiat is transient. BTC is forever

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @justBrian 24 Oct 2023

They trapped in here with us now...😎

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @TwoLargePizzas 25 Oct 2023

The harder they they try to control it the quicker it slips away from their grasp.

This is something I think about quite a bit. It's always surprising to me that everything they do to stop it highlights exactly why the fiat system is broken.

The thing is, I know 95% people won't notice (at first) but I think the 5% that do is enough to drive more Bitcoin adoption, which in turn makes the fiat system fail faster and the cycle repeats.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SpaceHodler 25 Oct 2023

That Trojan horse can even win Peter Schiff over. He's already said he likes the idea of a decentralized, censorship resistant blockchain, he just can't see why an 'unbacked' token would have any value. But if we put stablecoins and gold backed tokens on it, he'll use it himself.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @lightwalker 25 Oct 2023

Bitcoin is the only solution, but it's sovereign and unique. That's the reason they don't understand it.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @knorozov 24 Oct 2023

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @knorozov 24 Oct 2023

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