Ask SN: Anyone interested in funding the development of the unofficial SN app? \ stacker news ~meta

Ask SN: Anyone interested in funding the development of the unofficial SN app?

3243 sats \ 52 comments \ @felipe 7 Nov 2023 meta

Hello, Stackers! Felipe here!

I am the developer of the unofficial Stacker News app. It's a cross-platform app developed using Flutter. For now, I'm focusing on Android but, at some point, I'll release versions for iOS, Linux, Mac and Windows.

It's been a couple months since I published a new version if the app and it's currently in a broken state. I haven't had the time and/or energy to dedicate to side projects but it's not abandoned. I really want to fix the bugs and continue adding features to make it as good as the PWA version. I want to make it better, actually, and I know it can be done but I don't want to make this post a discussion on PWA vs NATIVE.

Starting in December, I'd like to dedicate at least 2 ~ 3 hours of my working days to the development of the app so I was wondering: is there anyone here is interested in donating a few sats to help with the development? If so, I should probably start a funding campaign with goals, milestones and etc.

ps: Please, don't just answer saying that PWA > Native because it's a lie. Everybody knows that Native >>>> PWA 😉

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844 sats \ 3 replies \ @TonyGiorgio 7 Nov 2023

You're forever going to be catching up to a project with full time developers. I don't see the point. A PWA that works is a million times better than a feature incomplete buggy native app.

33 sats \ 2 replies \ @felipe OP 7 Nov 2023

You're forever going to be catching up to a project with full time developers

I am ok with that if I have the time and energy to do that.

I don't see the point

If you had an older device you would see the point.

A PWA that works is a million times better than a feature incomplete buggy native app

Incomplete? Maybe. Buggy? Not necessarily. I'm pretty good at my craft so I'll always try to make it not buggy, fast and smooth. It's also open-source, so I'm certain that the users will help with that.

152 sats \ 1 reply \ @TonyGiorgio 7 Nov 2023

I have the time and energy to do that.

It sounds like you don't though. Isn't that the reason for the post?

Buggy? Not necessarily

Didn't you admit in the OP that it is currently broken?

If you had an older device you would see the point.

If you're telling me there is performance issues with a site that displays text on the screen, then I'd say that @k00b has a lot of work to do then. You're not wrong that native is better but you're definitely wrong that people are struggling to load stacker news on ANY phone.

I'm certain that the users will help with that

You're certain of free labor?

Not trying to be rude here but I don't see why doing this is worth anyone's time or efforts. Also not trying to dismiss your call for help. But I don't understand the point here.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @felipe OP 7 Nov 2023

It sounds like you don't though. Isn't that the reason for the post?

Yes!

Didn't you admit in the OP that it is currently broken?

Yes, I did! It's been a couple months since I last published an update.

If you're telling me there is performance issues with a site that displays text on the screen

It looks like you forgot the nature of web browsers. The problem here is that when opening a PWA the browser needs to load a lot of unnecessary bloat to render the first frame. My main device is only 5 (or 6) years old and it takes more than 10 seconds to load the PWA. Sometimes it takes more than 20 seconds. Even the fastest websites in the world will suffer to load on older devices because of bloat. And they do.

you're definitely wrong that people are struggling to load stacker news on ANY phone

I never said that. I always use my experience on my old phone as an example.

You're certain of free labor?

Wow, that was rude and unnecessary.

I don't see why doing this is worth anyone's time or efforts... But I don't understand the point here.

It's not that much time and effort. The first version took 30 hours or so to get to a point where it was usable. I forgot to mention that this app is a revamped version of another app I developed which is almost the same thing but for Hacker News. This one is closed-source for now but I will make the source available at some point.

1166 sats \ 8 replies \ @Michelson_Morley 8 Nov 2023

I'm with you @felipe. I had to spend some time to understand how to even "install" the PWA on my iphone (open stacker.news in safari, click the "share" button, choose "add to home screen"). But now that that's done, i'm fine just having that.

And all due respect to @TonyGiorgio and other nay-sayers in this thread (which seems to be... everyone) it is not only possible for a single dev to make such an app, it's both been done and been proven to be extremely loved by users.

I'm talking about the reddit iOS native app Apollo which was developed by a single guy named Christian Selig, which used reddit API to make a nicer iOS experience. Was it popular? There was a 2 month long "protest" and sitewide rebellion when reddit changed API usage fees suddenly, which made Apollo and other 3rd party apps economically unfeasible to maintain.

Christian has made the source code available (as much as he can) here (and his other repos): https://github.com/christianselig/apollo-backend

HOWEVER!

@felipe I don't think you should spend time on this right now, for two reasons;

First of all: Apple is reeally fucky about "zaps". They don't allow any payment for digital content in an app that doesn't go through their own system (which takes 30%). They shut down Damus (nostr client) for a while, caused an uproar few months back. Now, on Damus, you can't zap individual posts (thats "paying for digital content") but you can zap creators of the post. Weirdly, some iOS apps DO allow zapping individual posts (eg the app Zion). If you're not used to dealing with Apple Developer rules... it's not a pretty process. But that's what keeps iOS native apps high quality.

Secondly, Christian Selig worked at Apple before he made the app that became so popular (i think Apollo accounted for like 20% of reddit traffic at some point). He was extremely good at design, his app was a hundred times better than the official reddit native app. Reddit had an excellent API as well. Does stacker.news?

So everyone in the thread saying its not possible or shouldn't ever be done, they are wrong. Empirically. But there are probably better things to spend time on, imo.

Note that I am an Apple-exclusive user (and sometime-developer), so I don't know the situation for zaps on android. When I was doing mobile apps, it was usually never worth developing for Android over Apple because android users don't spend money on apps.

116 sats \ 1 reply \ @WeAreAllSatoshi 8 Nov 2023

Reddit had an excellent API as well. Does stacker.news?

I think it's pretty good, but it's not stabilized for external clients. I'm not suggesting it's unreliable, but the API is not designed for third-party clients, meaning (potentially breaking) changes get implemented and deployed as the developers see fit. Actual SN employees would need to weigh in on the priority of doing this, but it would assuredly slow down feature development in SN itself if the API was intended to be used in a reliable way by third party clients.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @felipe OP 8 Nov 2023

Yeah, most bugs in the app are caused by api changes

111 sats \ 0 replies \ @felipe OP 8 Nov 2023

Hey, @Michelson_Morley!

Thank you for your kind words, man! Also, thank you for the heads up about the current Apple development situation.

Yeah, I'm pretty familiar with the Damus shut down and zap problems and I'm aware of the arbitrarities imposed by Apple on developers. I've a few apps in production on the App Store and it's always a pain when I have to send new versions.

I know it's not going to be possible to zap posts so I was thinking on following Damus steps and implement it on the creator's profile only.

Secondly, Christian Selig worked at Apple before he made the app that became so popular... He was extremely good at design, his app was a hundred times better than the official reddit native app.

Yeah, it's going to take a lot of work to make a good app. I'm an experienced developer (not bragging), programming professionally since 2010 and developing for Android since 2014 so I know it's not easy at all to deliver good software.

When I was doing mobile apps, it was usually never worth developing for Android over Apple because android users don't spend money on apps.

Sad but true :(. But, fortunately, my plan is to make the app free as in freedom and as in beer and fund the development with the help of the community.

Thanks again, @Michelson_Morley!

ps: The app is already in development. I just didn't put much time on it the past 2 or 3 months.

https://github.com/felipebueno/stacker_news/

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Zepasta 8 Nov 2023

Fuck Apple. Why are Bitcoiners still using that shit? PWA is the way, no need to install anything, no app store, no censorship.

168 sats \ 3 replies \ @Michelson_Morley 8 Nov 2023

I'm not a bitcoiner. I'm a developer. The reason users spend money on the the apple apps but not the android apps is not censorship but quality control. They (Apple) certainly do some greedy stuff (like the 30% steal, eg.). But the reason I mentioned that Selig worked at Apple was not to imply that @felipe is not an experienced developer: I was implying that it's about Design. Apple understands this: Design comes before all. UX is everything. Implementation is details. No amount of programming experience gives you design experience.

Apple provides a lot of resources that can help you design more fluently: https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/

Just a tip.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Zepasta 8 Nov 2023

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62 sats \ 1 reply \ @Michelson_Morley 8 Nov 2023

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100 sats \ 0 replies \ @Zepasta 8 Nov 2023

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128 sats \ 9 replies \ @WeAreAllSatoshi 8 Nov 2023

Realistically, what level of funding are you looking for to make this happen?

0 sats \ 8 replies \ @felipe OP 8 Nov 2023

I didn't put too much thought on that yet but maybe something around 1200000 sats (~$400) / month would be enough to cover the hours spent on development.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @Zepasta 8 Nov 2023

Id rather pay $400 so you can contribute to Stacker.news site directly. I don't see the point for an app.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @felipe OP 8 Nov 2023

That's unfortunate. You just don't know any better. Good native apps are orders of magnitude faster and smoother than web apps.

Also, you don't need to rely on an app store to download native apps.

16 sats \ 3 replies \ @Zepasta 8 Nov 2023

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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @felipe OP 8 Nov 2023

What about Apple?

Yeah, That is a problem. Apple guys will have to rely on the app store or build the app from source themselves. I'd choose the latter.

I don't know man, i've been using SN PWA for a month now, and i haven't noticed any issues regarding performance and smoothness

Performance issues are more noticeable when you are used to faster tools. I'm not saying that the Stacker News site is not well developed or something like that, I'm just saying that even the most well developed sites and web apps will suffer from performance issues because of browser bloat. People with good newer devices don't notice many issues but people using old weak devices might have a terrible user experience. That's my case and that's why I like small dedicated native tools instead of web apps.

16 sats \ 1 reply \ @Zepasta 8 Nov 2023

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @felipe OP 8 Nov 2023

😂😂😂

reply on another page

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @felipe OP 8 Nov 2023

@WeAreAllSatoshi if you are willing to contribute, please do not send any money yet. I need to make plans and organize a formal campaign before receiving any funds.

16 sats \ 0 replies \ @WeAreAllSatoshi 8 Nov 2023

I’m not looking to contribute at this time. I was mostly asking for the larger audience to understand what you’re actually asking for here.

49 sats \ 2 replies \ @nemo 7 Nov 2023

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51 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 7 Nov 2023

sorry I am with @TonyGiorgio, I don't see the point in having an app for SN. PWA works just fine.

32 sats \ 0 replies \ @nemo 7 Nov 2023

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49 sats \ 0 replies \ @deletedd 7 Nov 2023

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68 sats \ 1 reply \ @Car 8 Nov 2023

👏👏 Love to see the need to contribute to SN!

🤘⚡️So great on you for contributing @felipe!

With that that said the PWA experience is the best it’s ever been…so will be extremely hard for a lot of us to give that up.

The community actually had a previous SN app called BSats for awhile, it was great in the beginning until they stopped updating it then eventually abandoned it over time. I would recommend checking that out for inspiration. Maybe could help?

👋 Couple questions…

Based on the git it looks like it will feature a lot of Nostr integration?

If so how would that work exactly?

Would I have the same SN wallet or another wallet to manage on your app?

500 sats \ 0 replies \ @felipe OP 8 Nov 2023

Hey, @Car!

so will be extremely hard for a lot of us to give that up

Yeah, I know that. My goal is to build a good snappy app aiming on people with "not so good" devices. Just basic features for now (reading & writing posts, zaps, comments, etc). Maybe people with better devices will start using when it's more stable and feature complete.

Based on the git it looks like it will feature a lot of Nostr integration? ... Would I have the same SN wallet or another wallet to manage on your app?

The screenshot you pointed is showing a comment someone have written. We don't have any Nostr feature yet but when I start integrating it I'll probably use some library like dart-nostr or something similar.

The community actually had a previous SN app called BSats for awhile... I would recommend checking that out for inspiration. Maybe could help?

Yeah, I did take a look at it when I started the development. We already surpassed the BSats feature and performance wise (although my version is currently broken for lack of upgrades).

I don't know the BSats story but I might have an idea on why they abandoned the development:

1. The Stacker News api is a moving target (which is ok because it was not made for third-party clients). I plan to follow upstream close and implement relevant changes ASAP.
1. The PWA crowd is too loud

Love to see the need to contribute to SN! So great on you for contributing felipe!

Thank you, @Car :)

16 sats \ 1 reply \ @Bullen 7 Nov 2023

... I only use SN on my phone in the browser. Have no issues apart from mis-clicking the zap button when scrolling sometimes. I don't know if that's unwelcome 😅

Not saying there's no point, but what'd be the core benefits to have an app today really be?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @felipe OP 7 Nov 2023

Have no issues apart from mis-clicking the zap button when scrolling sometimes

I know that feel, bro! Hahah

what'd be the core benefits to have an app today really be?

I'd say the same core benefits you would have a native app 10 years ago or 10 year from now. Web browsers load too much bloat to render simple web sites and it's only getting worse and worse. Having a good well maintained open-source native app fix that and makes usability better.

33 sats \ 1 reply \ @adexmakai4211 7 Nov 2023

I am concerned about unofficial SN app. Are you talking about Stacker News?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @felipe OP 7 Nov 2023

Yes, it's a client I'm developing

https://github.com/felipebueno/stacker_news

10 sats \ 4 replies \ @benthecarman 7 Nov 2023

Native vs PWA isn't really an argument if you're using flutter. You're not getting all the performance improvements, just the added functionality but SN doesn't need that

100 sats \ 2 replies \ @felipe OP 7 Nov 2023

SN doesn't need that

SN doesn't need anything. People do. Giving people choice is a good thing

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @benthecarman 7 Nov 2023

I'm saying it doesn't need things like nfc, vibrations, or background processing like you get with apps but not pwa

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @felipe OP 7 Nov 2023

Those features are not the only reason I choose native. In fact, I turn off those features in most of my native apps (the ones I develop and the ones I use) because I don't need or want them.

I choose native because o speed and smoothness on my devices. I like to make the best use of my phones, laptops, desktops and etc.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @felipe OP 7 Nov 2023

I think you are mistaking native as in "using the UI widgets provided by the OS". In this sense, no, it's not native. Flutter applications are native because they are compiled into native machine instructions, rather than relying on interpretation by a VM

34 sats \ 0 replies \ @0330830bf9 7 Nov 2023

I don't want to make this post a discussion on PWA vs NATIVE

Because you know exactly how that will go.

Honestly have nothing better to work on than an inferior interface? There's so much to do that would be a better use of time.

With the monetization model it probably can't even be distributed through app stores.

2 sats \ 4 replies \ @kepford 7 Nov 2023

Honestly I don't get the desire to have a native app. Is this really needed by many people? Just my two sats

100 sats \ 3 replies \ @felipe OP 7 Nov 2023

I like (good) native apps and I always use them when I have the option. They are usually a lot faster and smoother on my devices (a couple of old Android phones, many old but usable thinkpads and desktops).

32 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 7 Nov 2023

Don't get me wrong, God speed to you on your development. I'm sure you aren't alone in the app pref.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford 7 Nov 2023

Yeah I get that but some things are so simple that they don't need an app. SN is kinda on the line for me. Its like the perfect case for a PWA

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @felipe OP 7 Nov 2023

I understand your sentiment but I thought exactly the opposite way when I decided to build the app. I thought: "Man, this site is cool! And it's so simple that I could adapt the code for my Hacker News reader to work with it!".

Of course one could argue: "Why on earth did you need a Hacker News app? It's so simple...". And for that, my friend, I don't know the answer. I just did hahah

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @felipe OP 7 Nov 2023

I forgot to link the repo:

https://github.com/felipebueno/stacker_news

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @felipe OP 10 Nov 2023

@Michelson_Morley @WeAreAllSatoshi @TonyGiorgio @Car

I just published a new version of the app on Google Play. It's still being processed so It may take a couple hours to be available.

It's already available on Github Releases.

This release fixes the Load More feature, comments, zaps and profile page. Please let me know if you find any issues!

16 sats \ 0 replies \ @Michelson_Morley 10 Nov 2023

id love to but i don't have android so cant! :)

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Zepasta 8 Nov 2023

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100 sats \ 3 replies \ @felipe OP 8 Nov 2023

It's sad to see how people fell for the PWA dream. It started maybe 15 years ago with big techs giving people the illusion that web apps where the future because they where small, simple to distribute and update and easy to develop because html+css+js=supereasy.

It seems that people are still not only falling for this fallacy but also advocating for the demise of native apps.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for simple html sites and I use many of them daily. I also develop them. But when things start to get more complex, I think it's time for a good old dedicated native app.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Zepasta 8 Nov 2023

Complex apps = native, ok Anything else = pwa, is the way to go

SN is just text and links, i don't think it's worth the effort to create a native app. You already filtered half the mobile users (iOS) by being a native app that can't go on the app store.

12 sats \ 1 reply \ @felipe OP 8 Nov 2023

Complex apps = native, ok SN is just text and links

I don't know if you are a developer but if you look closely you see that stacker news is starting to get quite complex.

You already filtered half the mobile users (iOS) by being a native app that can't go on the app store.

Apple is only that strong in the US market. The rest of the world uses Android.

... i don't think it's worth the effort to create a native app

I like building things for the sake of curiosity, learning and/or having fun. I love to build useful tools. That is my God given talent and I must use it for His glory! Of course, I can't waste my time so I need to choose my battles wisely.

EDIT: fixing typos

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @felipe OP 8 Nov 2023

EDIT: fixing typos