Ask SN: How to onboard on BTC a vans/campervans parking \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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Ask SN: How to onboard on BTC a vans/campervans parking

5165 sats \ 42 comments \ @DarthCoin 16 Nov 2023 bitcoin

Hey guys, I have a friend with a parking lot that he want to convert it into a parking services for vans, campervans, motorhomes etc, with all services necessary.

I do not travel with such "homes" and I do not have such experience with these, but I want to help my friend to start accepting Bitcoin for these services.

@andy maybe you can help me with ideas for devices with "pay to use" option with BTC or other forms of payment. BTW, did you looked into https://zerosync.org for your project? Is not ready yet, but soon will be.

What I found out until now is that almost all campers are using an app from https://park4night.com to make reservations and look for places. But this app is only to be listed, it doesn't integrate payments for services and especially with Bitcoin.

I have some personal choices and solutions but I want first to hear SN opinion on this, especially from people that were using these kind of services and how did they paid, use them.

So, I am asking SN: how do you will organize this kind of business, using Bitcoin? Start from the fact that the owner, have ZERO idea about how to use Bitcoin, is not tech savvy at all, doesn't want payments with VISA, only cash / BTC. Using custodial services with withdraw daily to his own wallet could be an option.

Questions:

Is really necessary to have an automated barrier to be open with a special code or something?
Is really necessary to pay for use each kind of service ? (water, shower, electricity etc) Or is better to be included in a total price per entrance? Are already devices to be attached to these services and "pay to use" ?
How can be controlled the in/out of the vehicle, let's say if they pay for 2 days but they stay 3 days. Manually going to each car, every day? How does this work?
Are there any other apps that can be used as parking owner?
How would you organize the payment process with Bitcoin? What solutions you would use? Remember that each client should pay to a specific address (LN or onchain) and/or add as comment their car ID or something to be identified, so the owner could identify each payment easily. Displaying a QR code on each parking lot would be an easy solution. But if you have any other ideas, will be welcomed.

Thank you for your help. will zap the answers that make sense and could help me

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1459 sats \ 0 replies \ @andy 16 Nov 2023

Definitely interested in using Distributed Charge technology for campgrounds. Although I'd like a dual metered trust-minimized micropayments based approach for energy and water delivery, I think that right now people are going to want to just make simple daily payments and leave some trust in the campground operator.

I'd be curious to know if the campground owners and customers are content with selling electrical energy at a fixed daily rate without metering or if they'd like some metering with periodic manual payments. Does anyone out there have an opinion on that?

I have a feeling that water is too cheap in most places that it won't make sense to include the metering system for it and just charge a fixed daily rate.

Will customers demand a partial refund for energy and water if they leave the campground early or will they be okay forfeiting that service? If so, I know of two ways that refunds can be done with lightning:

LNURL, which has privacy and centralization concerns.
HOLD invoices which require the customer to provide extra funds in order to get their HOLD invoice canceled.

Which one of these would be preferred if they are necessary?

I have put something together called the Board A0 Relay Demonstrator. It can be used for doing simple switch control which doesn't require metering. I have not published much information on this, but in this workshop at TABconf I walk through using the hardware and creating a simple application from scratch that controls the switch : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZRJN7YbgQ . The Board A0 Relay Demonstrator is sitting on the floor of the stage to the left of the me.

1335 sats \ 8 replies \ @fm 16 Nov 2023

Hey, Travel a lot with a camper and used several similar services,

Is really necessary to have an automated barrier to be open with a special code or something?

Depends on the size of business and the honor system of the place. Legally, in Spain, you can have like a couple visitors without licence. If you plan to have 10 vans you need licence and then an automated system is good so you are not a slave of the barrier. In some places the honor system works, so the barrier can be manual.. You know those business in Holand you can pick your stuff and pay without the owner being present? Where i live the business would be out of stock in 2 days with no cash to be found..

Is really necessary to pay for use each kind of service ? (water, shower, electricity etc) Or is better to be included in a total price per entrance? Are already devices to be attached to these services and "pay to use" ?

Two packages are the best. One with basic parking and other with water and electricity included. wi/fi is a nice ammenity. Yet, if you have room for few vans, just go for 1 all/in pack and try to get the high price for the few vans.

How can be controlled the in/out of the vehicle, let's say if they pay for 2 days but they stay 3 days. Manually going to each car, every day? How does this work?

Probably any parking access control can read car tags. When you have a Credit Card on file you can charge later if anyone is trying to scam. With btc this is harder. For few vans a manual control is enough, for more vans use a camera software to read tags.

How would you organize the payment process with Bitcoin? What solutions you would use? Remember that each client should pay to a specific address (LN or onchain) and/or add as comment their car ID or something to be identified, so the owner could identify each payment easily. Displaying a QR code on each parking lot would be an easy solution. But if you have any other ideas, will be welcomed.

Ask for prepaid on chain or the QR on LN is also good. One way to protect agains scams and if the company is legal, is to invoice like 1 EUR in credit card. Legally, if they scam you, you can invoice them on the Credit card. I understand the idea is not to use CC or Fiat but you still have to cover your back., The 1 EUR would act like reservation and warranty they wont scam you.

About the apps, Caramaps is also growing a lot.

21 sats \ 7 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 16 Nov 2023

Thank you very much for the reply! Indeed many good info you gave me. So there are scammers among campers... I thought they are more like good people.

Did you know many campers that are willing to pay upfront with BTC/LN ?

210 sats \ 3 replies \ @fm 16 Nov 2023

The Camper family is weird.. You have a lot of regular families, and you have a lot of freeloaders. Bitcoin is not wide spread in the camper culture, but is growing more and more, Regular families with kids for example are more prone to reserve and pay for a reservation, Surfers are more prone to park near the beach with no schedule because the good waves chance place. Montain climbers just park near the mountain.. heheh

Usually people are good.. Yet, the honor system does not work equally everywhere.

Since Camper culture is growing a lot, if they market this business a Bitcoin friendly im sure a lot of people, like me, would be interested. This being said, i would be a bit reticent to do an on/chain transfer or even LN if i wasnt 100% sure the business exist and is legit. With so many scams around.. Probably would do it without thinking only on my second visit or once i arrive the place.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 16 Nov 2023

What about paying over LN when you arrive? What is wrong with that? You see the place that is not a scam and pay with BTC/LN scanning a QR code at the entrance or at the parking lot. I think paying over LN is better than onchain. Is not a big amount too. I think the scamming will come more from the campers than from the owner. Or are you talking about booking the place before you arrive?

Are mobile apps for booking directly, at least making the reservation, not payment included? This guy doesn't want to have a webpage, just using apps to list his place and take the money at arrival.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @fm 16 Nov 2023 freebie

Oh no,

The minute i see the park i would pay with LN in a second, Even on chain.

I was refering to pay with btc like a week before without previously being there once.

So many scams to take away your bitcoin, even references can be fake, So, i would wait until i get there to pay the first time just to be sure they exist

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 16 Nov 2023

Yes, is also in owner's advantage not using intermediaries as pre-payment platforms. Only P2P over LN payment or cash in hand.

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @fm 16 Nov 2023

On a side note, One form to attract more people that dont have a van, is to buy some old vans with no engine and have Rooms (vans) to rent along with the oparking space. This way, you dont pay any mechanical services or taxes since the vans are not road legal. You can buy them vwery cheap since no one want a van with no engine. Way cheaper than a bungalow and you dont need almost no permits to park an old van in your land.

This is just an idea for a extra service. Some people dont own a camper van and want to experience it, Others are just passing nearby on car and need a place to sleep.

Way cheaper than buying bungalows to rent. You can fix the interiors of the vans yourself since they arent road legal,

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin OP 16 Nov 2023

Ah no this guy want only a parking for caravans, not a camping etc. There are a lot of regular campings for tents, bungalows and stuff like that around. Only needed is a parking dedicated for auto-caravans and services for refill etc.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @fm 16 Nov 2023

Sounds good. If he do it remember to let us know :) Since i have kids my travels are very short now, But kids will grow.. Also, with kids now i always search for this services.. Before i would park anywhere i could..

1232 sats \ 24 replies \ @orangekush 16 Nov 2023

Hey! Another usual camper over here.

This kind of parking services in my experience are divided in 2 ways of working.

1st a "professional" way, which is a parking slot with some services like showers, toilets, water deposits, etc. This ones usually have a barrier in the entrance, where you need to make the payment through a point of sale, or online reservation, indicating your car ID which is later scanned and allows you to get inside the parking slot.+

2nd way is people renting the free space in their own garden/parking lot, and offering it for campers to stay overnight, and use some kind of services (or not, depending on each case).

As far as i understand, your friends situation is more similar to the 2nd way than to the 1st one (at least at the start), right?

In this cases, my experience is that you may list your place in apps like park4night, but also leave a way for users to contact you and ask if there's place or not. Then, at the time of arrival, you usually make the payment, and if you want to stay more days, you need to make the payment upfront.

Doing it like this would also make it quite easy for your friend to keep track of which vans have paid, and simply provide a new address each time a new client arrives, or keep track of his old addresses to be able to reuse them if a client wants to stay more than what he initially paid for.

Finally, I leave here another website I've used myself to find some of this places: https://www.homecamper.es, although I think it's only for Spain.

Hope this helped, let us know if your friend is finally doing that, would be happy to pay for a place using Bitcoin when travelling all around with the van ;)

21 sats \ 18 replies \ @fm 16 Nov 2023

este no lo conocia.. Voy a echar un ojo, en que CA vives?

PS: tiene buerna pinta el site..

100 sats \ 16 replies \ @orangekush 16 Nov 2023

No problem @DarthCoin, let us know if you need anything else, many people looking for freedom using campers to travel all around I'm sure would grasp the ideas behind bitcoin pretty quickly if they see it implemented in places like what you're trying to do!

All the best in this endeavour.

@fm si, esta bien, yo he encontrado varios sitios para dormir que no estaban en p4n ahi :) yo no conocía el que has mandado tu así que buen intercambio!

Soy de Cat pero me suelo mover por los pirineos y parte norte normalmente, tú?

37 sats \ 8 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 16 Nov 2023

I would like to see a simple mobile app where...

The camper:

book the place, before arrival
pay with BTC/LN straight from the app (some kind of linking a LNURL from the owner)
get a special QR code to be displayed at the entrance and will open the barrier. Also the same code can be used any time the camper want to exist from the parking during the stay and enter again when is needed.
pay extra services on-site or included in the main booking
for those who still want to pay in fiat, to have option to pay with CC

The owner:

list his parking in the app, with photos, details, tel number etc
link his LNURL/LN address/onchain if he wants to receive directly into his wallets
optional custodial service offered by the app but that is another story
for payments in fiat, to have option to choose: receive in BTC (instant conversion) or in fiat (to a bank account)
check the campers status in app

101 sats \ 5 replies \ @felipe 16 Nov 2023

This looks like something I'd love to get involved with!

I'm not just an app developer; I also own land available for parking spots!

Let me know if you need any help.

17 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin OP 16 Nov 2023

Such app will be more useful than a SN app 😂

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @felipe 16 Nov 2023

Absolutely 😂

16 sats \ 2 replies \ @fm 16 Nov 2023

Ahh, pues ya nos diras por donde tienes el terreno !! Pago en btc :)

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @felipe 16 Nov 2023

For sure!

It's in a small town near (50KM) São Paulo, Brazil!

16 sats \ 0 replies \ @fm 16 Nov 2023

minino.. Isso fica mais longe do que esperava :) Pensava que estavas em espanha. Tenho brasil pendente, mas nao em carrinha..

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50 sats \ 0 replies \ @fm 16 Nov 2023

Sounds pretty much complete,

with an app cloner you can use the whole parking4nigth structure,

Payment part is missing but the rest is prety much done

22 sats \ 0 replies \ @orangekush 16 Nov 2023

Oof that'd be awesome! Would actually be front-running any fiat-apps (that currently are shitty to say the least), to do all that, and it'd be a really good solution for both campers and owners! Sending forces to do that and keep us posted, maybe we could offer some help in the development of the project!

100 sats \ 6 replies \ @fm 16 Nov 2023

Nosotros vivimos en el Vallés, Pero me he movido por toda españa, portugal, francia, italia... Mas lejos ya en avion :)

200 sats \ 5 replies \ @pillar 16 Nov 2023

@fm, @02144ac769

In case you don't know already, there is a strong bitcoin community in Barcelona.

https://t.me/BarcelonaBitcoinOnly

linktr.bitcoinbarcelona.xyz

412 sats \ 0 replies \ @orangekush 16 Nov 2023

Love to see it, I'm one of the main organizers of it :) thanks for sharing!

411 sats \ 2 replies \ @fm 16 Nov 2023

Not sure i know this one, but will have a look,

I know about some regular meetings, But since i moved outside the city about 6 years ago, with the new city laws, neither my car or my van can go inside the city, and this is a huge impedment for me to attent some meetings.

But i will gladly join the telegram group. Thx for sharing!!

22 sats \ 1 reply \ @orangekush 16 Nov 2023

Ya, con toda la movida de las emisiones es un lio entrar en BCN... Espero que puedas pasarte algún dia, y sino durante el año que viene tenemos pensado empezar a descentralizar la escena de meetups a otras ciudades de Catalunya a ver si lo conseguimos!

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @fm 16 Nov 2023

Ahhh, ya te he visto por ahi en el grupo! Descentralizarlo seria interesante, Yo estoy por el Valles, cerca de Granollers, Habia pensado organizar algo local, llevo tiempo con eso en la mente, Al igual con vuestro know how me animo, entrar en bcn despues de las 20:00 no hay problema, pero normalmente veo encuentros antes..

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100 sats \ 0 replies \ @fm 16 Nov 2023

joined :)

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 16 Nov 2023

Indeed is a nice listing site.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 16 Nov 2023

Thank you very much! Indeed another good insight. Yes, the case is more like no.2 but is not like totally "private" place, will be a public place visible and open for everyone with a van/motorhome.

He have an empty land like for 30 vans or something like that and he want to use it, because in the area there's no dedicated service like that, only some regular camping sites and are always full during the summer. The owners of those campings are always pissed off with caravan campers because they occupy the places and they cannot get regular campers that stay longer.

So they decided to do this place DEDICATED only to auto-caravans with full services.

So yeah as far I see, should have somebody at the entrance to charge each visitor. That will be the easiest and simple method.

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @orangekush 16 Nov 2023

yep as @fm says 30 vans is no joke. If they live near the site they can always have a barrier and a little explanation letting people know where to find them. But if the idea is to allow vans to arrive during 24h some automated way would be better, to avoid needing to get up from bed at 3pm when some surfer kids arrive.

Note that some of this sites also have a fixed schedule, and only allow people to get inside the place from 10am to 10pm (just an example). After that the place is "closed" and no one else can get inside.

Maybe he'll loose one or two clients, but no one will need to be there 247.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 16 Nov 2023

He live near by, but he's quite busy during the day. Maybe could stay 1-2h in the morning and 2-3h in the evening. The parking will be anyways more busy during the summer. After september, very few campers are coming, until may.

Yeah I also suggested to him to install some kind of automated barrier, but for that you need also a video camera and etc.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @fm 16 Nov 2023

30 vans is a serious number, software and a couple cams will help you. 24 hour doorman is slavery ( if you are the owner abd have to be there) or expensive if you hire

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 16 Nov 2023

Good points. Considered.

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @andy 16 Nov 2023

As an EV driver, I would like to only pay for the parking spot, shower/toilet, and electric and not have to pay for water and sewer as I won't be using them, but at most campgrounds you have to pay for all if it together because most people use campers that want it all.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @fm 16 Jan

Are you an EV camper driver?

What are you using? How do you manage the autonomy?

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @xz 16 Nov 2023

Looking at mempools today, it would definitely need a ln back end or lsp. That's probably not very helpful. Was just making a one off payment last night and I nearly forgot to check 'lightning', there's no way people would be paying equivalent to 5USD tx on-chain.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 16 Nov 2023

Yes I know that. Onchain is only optional for people that want to stay longer like 1 week with full services. LN is a must use 100%.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @andy 16 Nov 2023

Would rather this not require an app, but would rather have a web interface. Don't want to have to install an app with a bunch of permissions in order to be able to rent a campsite.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 16 Nov 2023

Not really necessary to install an app just to use the parking. You always can just pay at arrival. Apps are more to find available places and locations and are totally optional.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @andy 16 Nov 2023

https://zerosync.org/ is cool, but I feel like that is part of a different level of the technology stack than where I am working at. If those other levels adopt it I will likely be on board incorporating it, bit it is not part of my core focus right now.