What I always wondered about faith \ stacker news ~christianity

1656 sats \ 25k boost \ 38 comments \ @ek 11 Dec 2023 christianity

What if you can "measure faith"?

What if the feeling that people get that makes them believe God is talking to or watching over them is actually completely scientifically explainable? Just not yet?

If we can explain it, we might at some point "inject God" into people, no?

Is it then still God?

Or just a lack of technology?

But since we can never proof that we just don't have the technology yet, this is a paradox. Just like we can't proof that God exists.

How convenient :)

If we accept this premise, isn't it then a choice if you believe in faith or in science?

So basically, consider this to be the theory that unifies science and religion, lol :)

What are your thoughts on this?

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1038 sats \ 6 replies \ @geisterde 11 Dec 2023

If we accept this premise, isn't it then a choice if you believe in faith or in science?

Science isnt capable of making value judgements, it isnt a belief system complete with moral values; ideally you study science, dont believe it. Many of the greatest scientists of history were religious, there is no conflict. There is a conflict when people believe they can look to their intellectual leaders as a type of god, capable of determining the fates of others.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @ek OP 11 Dec 2023

ideally you study science, dont believe it.

good point. very good point indeed :)

slow clap

There is a conflict when people believe they can look to their intellectual leaders as a type of god, capable of determining the fates of others.

Yes, I agree. I experienced the opposite though:

Sometimes, people are so religious, they think this makes them a good person and they don't see that they are actually horrible persons, lol :)

Or I don't know where this comes from. It's just weird to be religious and be a horrible person since religion is all about trying to be a good person, no?

But then, why are they just so horrible to interact with? Like wanting to fight all the time? How does this make sense? I can only speculate: Do they think, it doesn't matter how horrible they are, they are going to get saved no matter what since they go to church every Sunday?

Biggest mystery to me, lol :)

I try to live my life like this: No one is going to save me, I have to save myself, lol :)

100 sats \ 3 replies \ @geisterde 11 Dec 2023

I think its more a reflection of the death of civil society. As an example, politicians have stripped any sense of morality from religion and instead use it as a cudgel for their own purposes, I think that rubs off on weak minded people.

There is also a phenomena that people of high moral conviction can sometimes come across as abrasive due to their insistence, and people of no moral conviction can come across as nice because they have no standards to hold a conversational partner to; not saying thats what you are experiencing, but in religion and in fiction the most depraved are often depicted as offering great rewards, in the bible lucifer corrupted the world with the promise of the forbidden fruit (or sex, or knowledge depending on your interpretation).

I prefer civility and empathy in dealing with people, I find it promotes feelings of confidence and prevents insecurity on my part, I know I am treating others the way I prefer to be treated, and it has generally proved to be a more effective means of communication.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek OP 11 Dec 2023

There is also a phenomena that people of high moral conviction can sometimes come across as abrasive due to their insistence, and people of no moral conviction can come across as nice because they have no standards to hold a conversational partner to;

thanks, might indeed be simply related to "high moral conviction". so religion is just one example of such human behavior.

i think that's also why anyone who even attempts to start speaking from a moral high ground to me immediately gets dismissed. i don't have time for this, sorry, my past experiences tell me this isn't going to be worth it :)

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @geisterde 11 Dec 2023

I think you are right that there are other examples, maybe german engineers have a reputation for their exacting standards, or bitcoiners are difficult for their insistence against hardforks etc.

I dont think id put it in the same category as people acting morally self rightous, those people are just being dickheads. Think more along the lines of someone who refuses to bend certain rules even if they dont seem important, or someone whos not going to tolerate substandard work, they might come across as being a jerk, and they might be for what its worth, but its not without reason.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek OP 12 Dec 2023

Think more along the lines of someone who refuses to bend certain rules even if they dont seem important, or someone whos not going to tolerate substandard work, they might come across as being a jerk, and they might be for what its worth, but its not without reason.

I'll try. It's just not easy if my experience tells me that most religious people I met are just so .... full of themselves if you try to challenge them, not realizing they are the one being jerks, lol :)

Like to be honest, wtf. It really does feel like too many people use religion as a crutch:

I don't have to be really a good person. I just have to have so much faith that I will be saved and will go to heaven anyway.

I thought we bitcoiners are sovereign people? No one is coming to save us? lol :)

Sorry, I still don't really get this whole religion thing, I guess :)

I am glad I wrote this post though, I did change my mind on religion a little :)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @doubleplusgood23 6 Jan

Sometimes, people are so religious, they think this makes them a good person and they don't see that they are actually horrible persons, lol :)

No, I don't see that as a core of Christianity. A fundamental truth of Christianity is that we are a damned people and cannot escape judgement except through Jesus. There's no "way" to be a good person.

475 sats \ 3 replies \ @kepford 11 Dec 2023

Science is a process. It isn't something you believe in. It is a systematic way of evaluating things. Many do not know that science came out of the church. Science is one process or way we have of understanding the world around us.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek OP 12 Dec 2023

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465 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford 12 Dec 2023

The science v faith thing is a disservice to both.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek OP 12 Dec 2023

I agree when you look at it through this lense, as you just did.

120 sats \ 3 replies \ @Majere 11 Dec 2023

Now take that thought and think about how the church basically started modern science in the quest to prove God. Ironic

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek OP 11 Dec 2023

lmao, I think you're right :)

The whole world is a joke

Is this what people mean with clown world? :)

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @cyberpunk03 11 Dec 2023

I think that clown world is more in reference to politicians and economists.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek OP 11 Dec 2023

yeah, i know, it was just a joke, lol :)

66 sats \ 2 replies \ @oraltosun 28 Dec 2023

How about we try to ask the following questions?

If, as it says in the scriptures, God loves His servants very much, would He hide from them?

If your answer is "No, of course it wouldn't be hidden," read on: God is hiding from us, because if he were not hidden, everyone would believe in his existence. In this case, we would encounter a completely different world. That is, everyone would work for good and hope to go to heaven. But this world is a testing place. (that's what it says in the scriptures) In order for this world to be a testing ground, for good and evil to be separated, everyone would have to know that God exists or not exists equally. And that's what's really happening in our world.

And yes, God makes His presence felt by those He wills. There is also an experiment that can be applied for this. Do you want to find out?

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek OP 28 Dec 2023

If, as it says in the scriptures, God loves His servants very much, would He hide from them? If your answer is "No, of course it wouldn't be hidden," read on: God is hiding from us, because if he were not hidden, everyone would believe in his existence. In this case, we would encounter a completely different world. That is, everyone would work for good and hope to go to heaven. But this world is a testing place. (that's what it says in the scriptures)

This makes sense. I also think it's important that God hides itself else this whole "faith" thing wouldn't work. If you know something for certain, then it's no longer faith.

In order for this world to be a testing ground, for good and evil to be separated, everyone would have to know that God exists or not exists equally. And that's what's really happening in our world.

Mhh, interesting. With "everyone would have to know that God exists or not exists equally" you basically mean that everyone has to be in the dark equally? This wouldn't work if everyone would know for certain that God exists or not, right?

I think the uncertainty is the more important factor, not that everyone knows equally imo. Some people might do more "research" and thus will end up "knowing more" anyway.

And yes, God makes His presence felt by those He wills. There is also an experiment that can be applied for this. Do you want to find out?

Yes

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @oraltosun 28 Dec 2023

Before moving on to the experiment, I would like to make some observations:

Each prophet has his own miracles so that they can more easily convince people of the existence of a supernatural being. This desire to persuade is intended only for good people. People with evil in their hearts are not targeted. Because all religions have sent hope to good-hearted people living in societies mired in evil. Let's talk about every prophet's miracles: Moses: Wizarding ability Jesus: Able to raise the dead and cure diseases. Muhammad: The Qur'an

All religions have the same origin. (I'm talking about religions that are known and have books)

Obviously, they all tell the same thing and appeal to people's hearts first and then their minds.

According to my religion, Islam(It is the last religion, and since no other religion has yet arrived, it has been proven), Jesus is no different from Muhammad. Or Muhammad and Moses are the same for us. This fact is known and accepted only by well-educated and true Muslims which are a small group of people. The majority do not know and are hostile to each other. Let's move on to the experiment: Our miracle is the Qur'an. And the first word is "Read!"

The experiment is subjective. That is, each person conducts the experiment himself and draws the conclusion himself.

If it were otherwise, God would have declared his identity or existence to everybody. We've talked about it. He doesn't want it to be like this.

Experiment: To do what is written in the Qur'an and wants to be done until you reach a conclusion.

What are people being asked to do? Examples: Helping the poor Not distorting the facts Spouses do not cheat on each other Being clean and dressing cleanly Not using abusive language Not killing a man And of course, reading....

These are the first things that come to my mind. You will read the Qur'an and understand what is required and do it. You will do it again and again. Until you draw conclusions.

You can also decide whether the Qur'an is the word of God or not.

This is the only way to find God. And it's up to you. And only if He wills Himself to do so to you. I would like you to persuade him in a good and positive way. Good luck,

131 sats \ 1 reply \ @brave 11 Dec 2023

Measured faith is when we take leap into things we know nothing about

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @geisterde 11 Dec 2023

I like that, you have measured someones faith when they take a plunge into something that hasnt/cant be proven, or something to that effect.

20 sats \ 1 reply \ @joyepzion 11 Dec 2023

I always though this was why church of scientology was formed for

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek OP 11 Dec 2023

To proof that they can't proof God? :)

If so, somebody should tell them they can pack up, it's done, lol :)

By the way, this has big Gödel, Escher, Bach vibes :)

I should definitely finish that book one day! It's just pretty intense at times :)

Damn, too late for the weekend but I posted a recommendation to read this book here anyway :)

93 sats \ 0 replies \ @Natalia 11 Dec 2023

What if you can "measure faith"?

don't think so, but all I know is faith is powerful, and we are def not just animals coming here to sleep, eat, and make babies.

111 sats \ 0 replies \ @okpj 11 Dec 2023

You can measure faith by the trail of blood behind it

40 sats \ 0 replies \ @fred 11 Dec 2023

The early adopters of Bitcoin had measured the faith of the blockchain and Voila! their faith paid off

444 sats \ 1 reply \ @Nuttall 11 Dec 2023

Always get more than one source for learning. Faith is also combined with Dogma but it should always be separated.

Measuring ones own experience is not necessary. Measuring someone else's experience is mind control.

Practice is where the greatness happens.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @nemo 11 Dec 2023

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87 sats \ 0 replies \ @nullama 11 Dec 2023

When you sacrifice the present for a possible better future, you have faith in that process.

For example, if you don't eat a pizza today, you hope that you will be thinner in the future. You don't know 100% that it will happen, many things could happen in your body, but you hope for that to happen.

That's faith.

That's all.

It doesn't require the existence of a God.

The whole faith thing is simply that, if you behave nicely in the present, you will have a great future (heaven). And if you behave badly in the present, you will have a bad life ahead (hell).

As I see it, heaven and hell are not places after you die, but simply your future, in this life. So, if you want to get to heaven (have a good life in the future), you have to make sacrifices in your present. If, on the other hand, you only do vices and are a bad person, you will end up in hell (you won't have a great life in the future).

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinosphere 11 Dec 2023

Issac Asimov wrote about how faith/religion might be just a 'bug' in our monkey brains, one we can conceivably 'fix' one day. It makes perfect sense to me why this bug would be exploited over and over throughout the centuries, so that we keep giving the clergy our money, basically. Also so that kings have the apparent 'right' to rule us.

I'm basically an atheist because of this revelation, but then again, it's not proof of a lack of creator: odds are still pretty high that we're all in a simulation anyway, and someone did have to create that simulation. Hmm.

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bitman 11 Dec 2023

Not sure if this takes you on a side quest; but have you ever heard of the idea of The Protestant Work Ethic (PWE)?

It's a theory by sociologist Max Weber who looked at the idea of a divergence in the idea of work between Catholics and Protestants.

Weber conceived that Catholics saw that their way of serving God was to perform charitable works - whilst he saw Protestants served God by 'hard work'.

Weber suggested that the PWE hailed the true birth of modern capitalism.

In his theory, Weber saw that people with this ethic felt that hard work (and the material benefits of this) was due to their religiosity. This caused believers to become more and more religious and expecting greater wealth on earth (as opposed to Catholics, who expected their own reward in the eternal 'next life').

It's an interesting concept, and one that I've wanted to expand on with a Bitcoin angle, but have yet to do so...

I guess what I'm saying, in relation to your post, is that people saw God 'talking' to them by themselves becoming wealthy.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @needcreations_ 8 Jan

What if I told you that science is possible only through God's works, and there are limits to technology, and it is impossible to prove that God exists, since he is "outside the system" and not bound by space and time, hence: faith.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @PlebeiusG 3 Jan

The book "A Manual for Creating Atheists" actually has a very good explainer on faith.

You can "measure" it using socratic reasoning.

Highly recommend.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @drlh 14 Dec 2023

But since we can never proof that we just don't have the technology yet, this is a paradox. Just like we can't proof that God exists.

You can't prove that god exists or not because it isn't defined, no? I mean to prove something you need to define it firstly. But every human religion has different deity/ies than others, or even nothing (buddhism). Even denominations of the same religion have big differences, like different philosophies and mystical experience. And everyone believe in their definition of god/s and world like it's chosen one, which makes finding "true" definition impossible.

If we accept this premise, isn't it then a choice if you believe in faith or in science?

Well true science like bitcoin doesn't need big trust. It just doesn't care. You can check for yourself the planets of solar system, or with big lake you could estimate the radius of earth! Those will exist regardless of your belief, or even knowledge. That's reality, and you explore it. Faith tries to create virtual one in mind. Even if it mimics reality, without believers it would cease out forever.

Now Bitcoin. It's digital money, but is it virtual one?

edit: I'm kinda late to party)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 11 Dec 2023

Faith is a qualia and as such it's both unmeasurable and not comparable interpersonally.

Neuroscientists have measured brain activity that corresponds to religious experience, though. They've even managed to induce religious experience by activating the corresponding brain regions.

This was from a Richard Dawkins documentary: those who couldn't generate a religious experience on their own also couldn't have religious experience induced by the scientists.