What's the deal with all the usage of @delete in x days on SN \ stacker news ~meta

What's the deal with all the usage of @delete in x days on SN

2141 sats \ 74 comments \ @kepford 21 Dec 2023 meta

Don't get me wrong. The feature is really great but I wonder about some of the users using this feature.

A stacker asks a question. A commenter posts an answer but appends @delete in x days to the comment. Now for some topics I can see this. But some of you seem to be using it for the most mundane comments and topics? What am I missing? People are free to do as they please of course but deleting comments that answer questions seems to me to create decreasing value on SN.

What do you think? And why are some accounts using this feature so much. We have Anon... wouldn't this be a better option for comments if you are concerned with the privacy of your opinions on an Android operating system.

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203 sats \ 5 replies \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

Privacy is choice. We have a choice. I choose what to post and how to post it on this site. That isn't my question. I really want to understand the mindset behind creating an account and then answering questions only for them to be deleted in a few days.

If done selectively this seems like a good idea. Lets say there is some somewhat sensitive topic that I don't want to be archived for all time. I can use the auto delete thing. But if all of my comments or most of them I want deleted wouldn't posting with @anon make more sense?

I pretty regularly search SN for questions and comments. Finding a post with a ton of deleted comments is rather annoying. I also have noticed over the years that people get on bandwagons and just start doing what others suggest without thinking about it for themselves and their actual situations. People do this with privacy. They get scared and start doing many things that make no difference in their life but ignore other thing that would make a big impact. I wonder if that is what is going on here.

527 sats \ 4 replies \ @WeAreAllSatoshi 21 Dec 2023

Maybe the users still want the sats from the undeleted post/comment, but don't want the content laying around forever? That's the only reason I can think of doing what you've described vs using @anon.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 21 Dec 2023

@anon also has higher fees: 100 per comment, 1000 per post

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @nemo 21 Dec 2023

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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Eobard 21 Dec 2023

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78 sats \ 0 replies \ @nemo 21 Dec 2023

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248 sats \ 4 replies \ @Natalia 21 Dec 2023

People are free to do as they please of course but deleting comments that answer questions seems to me to create decreasing value on SN.

I guess it depends on what value we are talking about, and not everything needs to be kept, and actually one of the reasons I prefer using SN over Nostr is the fact that I have the freedom to delete here:)

7 sats \ 3 replies \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

Yes, this all is very variable depending on the discussion and the people. I agree that not being able to delete on Nostr changes the way I think about. Just know, your server, not your delete key. SN is not trust-less. The Internet is a wild place and it is not hard to monitor a site like SN.

We all have our own mental and threat models. Appreciate the discussion here. It has made me think about some things I haven't thought about in a while. SN is very high signal and low noise.

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @Natalia 21 Dec 2023

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7 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

My mentality is that it is ALL fodder for data collection / AI / State actors so just know that going into it. Delete stuff or don't post it but don't kid yourself and think it will never be connected back to you. Maybe it won't but don't go into with a false sense of security.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Eobard 21 Dec 2023

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125 sats \ 30 replies \ @kr 21 Dec 2023

i agree with you.

the library of great content on SN loses some of its value when items are deleted.

what do you think about charging an additional fee for those who want to delete their posts or comments (similar to the fee stackers already pay to post and comment)

101 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

I'm not sure about that. Not opposed to it. Let me think about it for a bit.

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 21 Dec 2023

what do you think about charging an additional fee for those who want to delete their posts or comments (similar to the fee stackers already pay to post and comment)

There was some discussion regarding this from @WeAreAllSatoshi, @k00b and me in the ticket

164 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

Thanks, I will check that out!

34 sats \ 4 replies \ @nemo 21 Dec 2023

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0 sats \ 3 replies \ @kr 21 Dec 2023

google is the #1 source for traffic to Stacker News this month, i think it’s fair to say that some of the new people joining SN are first searching for topics on Google, then reading SN threads, and then becoming stackers.

randomly deleting comments within popular threads limits the number of new people that might become contributors today.

https://plausible.io/stacker.news?period=30d

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @nemo 21 Dec 2023

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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @nemo 21 Dec 2023

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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @nemo 21 Dec 2023

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1 sat \ 3 replies \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

If the main use case for the delete in x days feature is to be able to both delete the comment automatically AND keep the sats from the comment (which I can see and is valid IMO) then it would seem reasonable to me for the commenter to pay an extra fee for the service of automatically deleting the comment.

Also if the fee would increase in the same way comments and posts increase that would help discourage over-use of this feature. I realize over-use is subjective but so is spam and all the other things the fee structure are designed to discourage.

If a person doesn't care about the sats or "credit" then they can use @anon or manually delete the comment.

111 sats \ 2 replies \ @nemo 21 Dec 2023

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1 sat \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

Seeing it in privacy and a few other territories. I hope I'm not overstating it. But, before it becomes "a thing" I wanted to bring it up and try to understand.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nemo 21 Dec 2023

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0 sats \ 17 replies \ @Eobard 21 Dec 2023

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0 sats \ 16 replies \ @kr 21 Dec 2023

i guess i first need to ask if you believe deleted posts/comments are a net-negative for Stacker News?

if so, would you prefer solving it with a different kind of payment (ex. flat premium subscription) or is there a non-financial approach you think would be more effective?

78 sats \ 15 replies \ @Eobard 21 Dec 2023

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10 sats \ 4 replies \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

Here's my question, and it is the question everyone should ask themselves when thinking about privacy.

Private from who? What is your threat model? Who is or could be targeting you? What are info are they targeting?

I don't expect answers but this is how I think about privacy. If my threat model involves nation state actors I can tell you I would not be using SN at all. I don't know the codebase of SN but if I wanted my comments to never be connected to my account... I would not use the site. I could never be sure that my comments were not preserved by someone and if my nym account was ever connected to my real life identity that I'd be safe.

These are very personal questions. Not everyone thinks about them. Many are new to the idea of online privacy and security. I don't see threat modeling and tradeoffs talked about enough. You are probably doing it right for you. I won't try to get in your head. I have no skin in the game.

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @Eobard 21 Dec 2023

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20 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

Please don't take this the wrong way but if you truly mean what you say. Protect from all then you should not use SN at all. I don't think you actually mean from all though. This goes back to my thesis that "the Internet is forever". I think that is the safest mindset to have when using the web. As soon as I visit a site I'm trusting the code, and the devs on that site. It is still my choice what to entrust them with but they already know some things about me. I can obfuscate it but when I start posting content and I authenticate we are on a new level of trust.

Just be careful. Not sure what as at risk for you. Maybe you know all this stuff. You probably do.

5 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

Like I said, I don't live in your shoes. I get what you are saying. Do what you think you need to do.

9 sats \ 0 replies \ @nemo 21 Dec 2023

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reply on another page

10 sats \ 9 replies \ @kr 21 Dec 2023

good feedback!

95 sats \ 8 replies \ @Eobard 21 Dec 2023

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114 sats \ 7 replies \ @Eobard 21 Dec 2023

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10 sats \ 6 replies \ @kr 21 Dec 2023

i see, so at a certain point maybe you decide you want that comment to be an @anon comment? i think you could still receive the sats too, even if your name is not longer associated with it.

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145 sats \ 1 reply \ @davidw 21 Dec 2023

I’m more conscious about the UX of landing on a page in future if this becomes the norm. I would recommend something like:

deleted top-level comments without any sub-comments = no longer visible
deleted top-level comments with sub-comments = deleted by author (visible only to authors of replies)
deleted sub-level comments without any sub-comments = visible only to authors above
deleted sub-level comments with sub-comments = deleted by author (like current)

If want to be transparent - maybe even a count of deleted comments and sats associated with those (at the bottom or when tapping the comment sats total).

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Eobard 22 Dec 2023

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11 sats \ 0 replies \ @kr 21 Dec 2023

one marginal improvement for the deleted by author comments could be to replace that text with an icon (maybe a tumbleweed or something).

it doesn’t directly solve the problem of people deleting stuff, but it might lower the frustration people have with seeing some text and getting disappointed when they realize it’s a deleted by author comment.

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @satoshiplanet 21 Dec 2023

I agree that the interesting point here is to know why, I am also curious to know the reasons, maybe privacy? it would be nice to know more about the thoughts behind it, psychology is always a great topic

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @NoStranger 22 Dec 2023

I get the desire of some people to delete content.

Personally, I'd love to help people with the content I've made, even if I'm not around anymore.

If I delete something, it's because I've made a mistake or maybe I've inadvertently shared something that could be offensive to someone.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @oraltosun 22 Dec 2023

This message will self-destruct within 5 minutes, and if it is not deleted, there is still no problem.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Book_It 22 Dec 2023

Most people tat are doing it are using stackenews as a chat and creating topics in random territories to talk daily and stay private.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @quark 21 Dec 2023

What if I quote a comment that is going to be deleted? The copy of the comment won't be deleted in my comment right?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

This is a point I keep making. There are so many ways that your comment can be preserved. Deleting it just makes it harder for a peer user that wasn't already surveilling you to go digging to see what you have typed in the past.

I keep harping on the dangers of false security because it seems that many people that use the Internet do not understand how it all works. I'm not even just adding this info for those deleting their comments but for those thinking this might be a good idea.

Its kinda akin to thinking a VPN make you private. I mean, private from who. You have to trust the VPN provider when you do that. What info do they have on you? Do they keep logs? How do you know they aren't lying to you? This isn't to say you should not use a VPN but a person that thinks they are invisible is in more danger than someone that understand how they are seen and by whom.

Also perfection can be the enemy of the good. I'm not saying deleting comments is pointless. But just be aware that your comments might be preserved by someone so keep you head up and eyes open.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nemo 21 Dec 2023

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0 sats \ 3 replies \ @joyepzion 21 Dec 2023

If you delete you comment, how can others read the flow of conversation days later

9 sats \ 2 replies \ @nemo 21 Dec 2023

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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

They didn't say they owe'd anything. It was just a question.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nemo 22 Dec 2023

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

Its becoming clear to me that one reason why the @delete thing annoys me is my history working on web sites. I started back in the 2000s and at this point privacy was an afterthought. I mean, social media was just a baby. My view of the web was one of archival information. Respect URLs. Make redirects when you do a site redesign. Dead links are bad for the web. All that sort of stuff.

Also, I have been interested in privacy for many years and have watched to surveillance state move from a conspiracy theory to accepted fact. I remember the day I came into the office and my office mate apologized to me about calling me a nut (The day Snowden's revelations came out). I feel a conflict here. Its real. Privacy is not a boolean. Its full of grey areas and each individual has their own set of threats and tradeoffs. I can't get into anyone else's head nor have I walked in their shoes.

I just ask that you think about how think about privacy and SN. Don't think that deleting content will save you. Maybe it makes some things harder but be careful. On the other side don't think there are zero tradeoffs to deleting you contributions. There are tradeoffs. I'm not making a judgement call on any individual or any instance of using any of SN privacy features. I just ask that we all think about it.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @siggy47 21 Dec 2023

I can see why a person would create an account and delete comments as opposed to simply using the Anon option. Perhaps the account has developed an identity and has relationships with other stackers, but also wants to maintain privacy. I see your point about losing valuable content. Perhaps a compromise would be to create an option to anonymize a comment or post rather than delete it.

203 sats \ 4 replies \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

Honestly, I can see use cases for this feature. It just surprised me to see some accounts using it on every comment and for the most run of the mill comments. Its not like we are forced to KYC these accounts or like we can't obscure our IP addresses and create new accounts.

I guess I'm just wondering if people are overdoing it a bit and maybe they could think about the tradeoffs. I don't live in their shoes so I'm not saying they should or shouldn't do something. I just wonder if much thought is going into it.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @nemo 21 Dec 2023

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31 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

That might be fair. Maybe I just happened to see it due to what I was reading. I'm not here to call out people using it. I just know that sometimes things catch on and people copy others without thinking it through.

First I wanted to see if I was missing something. I was. Second I wanted to see if others saw some negative side effects to this. They do.

In the end, it doesn't matter if I think people using this feature are overdoing it. But SN is very valuable to me and I want to see it flourish. I don't want a future where posts are full of deleted comments.

I also don't want those more novice with privacy to think that this "disappearing" comment thing is some shield of protecting. My view on security is that one should consider everything they post online as alive forever. Anyone could be archiving it without your knowledge. False security is dangerous. By using SN you are trusting those that run the service. In the end it very hard to use the web in a trustless fashion. Its not impossible but pretty close. If you really want more anonymity online you need to use a nym and maybe not even post certain things because you could compromise the the nym.

I hope this all makes sense. I'm not saying this feature should go away. I'm not saying people are dumb for using it. I'm just asking why and asking people to think about why they are doing it and the tradeoffs.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nemo 21 Dec 2023

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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Eobard 21 Dec 2023

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10 sats \ 9 replies \ @Eobard 21 Dec 2023

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5 sats \ 8 replies \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

My goal is not to call anyone out as if they are doing something wrong. I want to understand the why as well as the tradeoffs. Thank you for explaining.

I get what you are saying about real life but SN and Reddit aren't real life. You make a good point about things sticking around forever but I would caution you on thinking that deleting in x days protects your content from being on the web forever. Anyone with basic computer skills can preserve what we post on the web. Its not hard to do.

I think this is a useful feature and I can see myself using it for some comments but as I stated in my post if a large number of SN users start doing this it dilutes the value of SN. One of the massively useful things about the Internet and sites like this as well as Reddit are the archival ability. Don't under-estimate that value.

Of course if you choose to delete all your comments in x days for whatever reason that is your prerogative. You don't have to explain why to me. Thanks for explaining some of your rational behind this. It is appreciated.

0 sats \ 7 replies \ @Eobard 21 Dec 2023

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66 sats \ 5 replies \ @0fje0 21 Dec 2023

hardly anyone replies to old comments or posts

True. But they often read old comments or posts.

1 sat \ 4 replies \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

Exactly. And unless you are the one reading these comments (I often am) or someone with access to analytics you would have no idea how often people read old posts.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Eobard 21 Dec 2023

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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @0fje0 21 Dec 2023

Honest question: when your comment gets auto-deleted in 10 days, mine (the one I'm typing here now) also goes poof?

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

No it doesn't. Comment is actually replaced. Yours is left as is.

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5 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 21 Dec 2023

Agree to disagree. There are many usecases for Reddit. I rarely comment on Reddit but use it pretty often to find answers to technical questions. I've noticed many deleted posts and comments on Reddit in the past few months. I think it reduces the value of some posts. I would argue most of the posts I find valuable.

To me, there are other platforms and mediums that are suited to short lived conversation. I guess I don't get the need to delete the most mundane content but maybe I just don't get it.