reply on: National Divorce aka Secession \ stacker news ~libertarian

277 sats \ 11 replies \ @freetx 2 Jan \ on: National Divorce aka Secession libertarian

During the writing of the Constitution, they regularly used the phrase "a voluntary union"....however the civil war pretty much settled that notion.

The question is, what would the federal govt do if some modern state filed articles of secession? Do they have enough control via MSM to demonize the rogue state and get citizens to support its invasion? Or has that ship sailed?

277 sats \ 7 replies \ @kepford 2 Jan

"the civil war pretty much settled that notion."

By that do you mean that might makes right? That's what it sounds like.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 2 Jan

From the follow up, I think it's meant to indicate that since the civil war it has not been a voluntary union, which is correct. De facto, the US is one state now.

277 sats \ 4 replies \ @kepford 3 Jan

Another angle to look at this is with states in the USA defying the feds. While I agree with you in general in practice states have exercised rights against the feds. They have done so on the war on drugs, marriage rights, and gun rights. If you understand the 10th amendment you can see that feds do not care about the constitution. But, states do push back. I suspect we will see more and more states pushing back on the feds before we see a real secessionist movement.

Honestly, the federal system with different states having their own laws, ones that differ is a much better model than a single state. Granted, any state with a monopoly on the use of force is evil, but the founders of the US had a good idea. In practice it failed. The constitution failed but it is a beautiful document. In my experience people just use it when it is convenient. It is pointless to use it in arguments. The average person just thinks X and isn't interested in hearing arguments against their preferences.

To me, the only solution is more decentralization and more freedom. Mind your own business and live and let live.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 3 Jan

This is the major pressure release valve for our society. There's been a major restoration of "state's rights" in the areas you mentioned (and many more). As long as that trend is resilient against pushback from the national regime, there will at least be places to go that better match individual preferences.

277 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford 3 Jan

What few people seem to understand is that it goes both ways. There will be States that go toward your values but also others that move away. We have been so driven to be micromanagers that few seem to accept this. It boggles my mind that people seem to believe that their side can ever win over the other. Its stupid.

Thing is, most don't think. They just parrot.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 3 Jan

The nice thing is that as long as precedent keeps adding to state and local autonomy, nobody has to care what someone on the other side of the country thinks about how their state is run.

I wonder if people's totalitarian instincts will atrophy in an environment with less national decision making.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 3 Jan

I think so

277 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 3 Jan

Yeah, I just like people to recognize what they are saying. If you believe this, don't kid yourself. We are not free.

I have talked to conservative republicans that opposed succession but supported Brexit, and Taiwan. Yet they also support Ukraine despite Russians in Ukraine voting for secession. There are some mental gymnastics going on there. US citizens have been programmed to believe that the believing people have the right to determine their government are racists. Its quiet interesting.

For those that struggle with this stuff...

I do not support any state. All of them are evil. I do not support Israel, Russia, or Ukraine as well as Hamas. Evil men seek to create conflict for their profit. The plebs are constantly manipulated into supporting wars on false premises. Open your eyes and don't be played.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 2 Jan

the civil war pretty much settled that

Only in the way a school-yard bully settles that they get to keep your lunch money. There's no moral significance to that point, but you're right that it's the outcome to be most concerned about.

I think the best scenario for a peaceful separation is Trump winning and a blue state seceding. I don't think the Democrats would let Texas go peacefully. Obviously, I could be wrong.

279 sats \ 1 reply \ @jgbtc 3 Jan

The thing is every blue state is actually high population blue cities surrounded by red rural areas. So I'm not sure how that would play out.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 3 Jan

It still reduces the number of people living under a government they don't support. If a minority in the breakaway states don't like it, they can either move or try to stay in the original country by separating from the breakaway state.

How it would actually play out I imagine would be very messy.