How do you explain zapping to non-bitcoiners? \ stacker news ~bitcoin

How do you explain zapping to non-bitcoiners?

4397 sats \ 61 comments \ @Scoresby 18 Jan bitcoin

Zapping is incredible. I get the warm fuzzies every time I see that someone sent me a few sats. But it's not the easiest thing to describe to people who don't know bitcoin and bitcoin culture.

I often find myself saying that zaps are tips, but tips are a loaded word and usually imply a larger amount than a few pennies or fractions thereof.

So what's the word (or words) you use to describe it?

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181 sats \ 2 replies \ @SimpleStacker 18 Jan

Imagine if you got a penny for every upvote on Reddit

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

This is exactly the thing: anyone who has ever posted anything online can feel a little tingling at the idea that all those likes or upvotes or comments are worth a bit of money.

This is a killer use case, but I find that even trying yo talk about it to non-bitcoiners is often a dead end. They don't believe other people would actually zap or they don't think it could work with "real" money (who's actually using real money is an argument I have to bite my tongue on so as to stay on topic) or they ate stuck with the idea that a tip is $5 or $10 and 21 sats breaks their minds.

But you have encapsulated the vision here.

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker 18 Jan

If they don't believe just send them over to stacker.news to see it in action 🤠

145 sats \ 5 replies \ @Public_N_M_E 18 Jan

It's a tip, sort of, it's not, but it's close enough that the leyman could understand that. In the US tipping culture is very prevalent. It shouldn't be too hard to have people who are used to tipping wrap their heads around that concept.

Europe has in some places a more common tipping culture than others. I'd say mainland Europe it's more common than the UK. I can't comment on other areas of the worlds tipping habits as I'm not familiar with them.

But for me it's a simple question. Did you like what that person wrote? If yes -> tip/zap if no -> move along.

Value for value only works if people give value. And I mean both ways.

EDIT had a bit of a thought burst.

One of the problems is, it's a payment sort of. But you've already consumed the content. You don't have to zap to consume the content. Why pay for something you can have for free? Personally I feel it's a show of appreciation (like a tip, but I understand that that brings other connotations).

As mentioned further down by user @southside263 tip (at least to me) means gratuity, as in grateful. A tip is a thank you. It's a voluntary extra to show appreciation. (I do concede that in the US a tip isn't seen as voluntary).

Perhaps refering to zapping more like a gratuity might be more palatable language for some people?

129 sats \ 4 replies \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

Gratuity is getting there, I like this idea of gratitude, thank you. Something freely given. I would love to use gift, but that sounds weird to my ears.

100 sats \ 2 replies \ @windward 18 Jan

I would love to use gift, but that sounds weird to my ears.

gift is correct, it feels like we're running an information gift economy on SN with LN as the value layer

zapping is somewhat analogous to a gift. you wanted to recognize that person for the value they brought , so you zapped- they didn't necessarily do it for you specifically, their action was a gift as well.

there's no explicit agreement for future reward when they did what they did but bitcoin allows us to thank people with value that we don't personally know.

'zap' to me implies a gift of bitcoin, specifically to someone you may not know personally, perhaps only by their nym, in a non-business transaction.

'I zapped someone because the recipe they posted was really good' tells you that I don't personally know the person and the fact that I sent them bitcoin.

'gift' could mean literally anything and implies a more personal connection than you may actually have.

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

In the fan fiction world there is a pretty well developed concept of the gift economy. But it has a pretty strong anti-capitalist bent. So when I've spoken about zapping to fandom people, it hasn't gone too well.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @windward 18 Jan

In the fan fiction world there is a pretty well developed concept of the gift economy. But it has a pretty strong anti-capitalist bent. So when I've spoken about zapping to fandom people, it hasn't gone too well.

Gift economy is accurate for what exists on nostr/SN - communities existing on a base layer that allows them to transmit value peer to peer.

where anti-capitalists might have a point is how the community tends to based around money (i.e., most people on nostr/SN are also bitcoiners, discussing finance etc) and are not necessarily in a dependence situation - they do not need to interact with the 'gift economy' to get the 'gift'(bitcoin).

using the fandom example, I can't necessarily get fan fiction from a cornerstore. it's not really a commodity in the same sense that say, a Gatorade is. I can't go and pay for a drink with it - but I could maybe trade my stories for someone willing to pay me with money to buy my drinks. I have to interact with whatever fandom I'm into to get my fix, and sometimes I might send someone money for things I desire to participate. having money isn't a hard requirement for participation, having what the fandom values is.

Bitcoin is many things -but it is also money-people may get hung upon this aspect and only see the fiat motivations as in the attention economy (see TikTok & their gifting of 'roses','galaxies'etc) vs the network of relationships being built via a knowledge gift market like nostr/SN.

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @Public_N_M_E 18 Jan

Yeah I get what you're saying about it sounding weird, it's a cultural thing. Where I from tipping isn't required. You pay for what you asked for and if you want to leave a tip for the waiting staff/barista/whoever. You do that as extra, and it's quite a big gesture, it's not expected and it's a way of saying thank you to them for being good whilst hosting you.

But like I said above, in other cultures tipping is not only customary it is expected. So to me gratuity means exactly that, it is expressing gratitude via a financial reward.

111 sats \ 2 replies \ @piecover 18 Jan

It's just a form of online tipping

75 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

Online tipping is the phrase I use the most, but I've encountered a lot of people who think this means something like tipping waiters (in the US sense).

And online tipping like we do at SN is actually pretty rare. I think that's the trouble. Other than with video platforms like tiktok, twitch, only fans, there pretty much isn't any viable way to tip online. Also, the size of zaps is awesome. You just can't tip someone half a cent online.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @piecover 18 Jan

Fair I agree

120 sats \ 1 reply \ @0fje0 18 Jan

I call it "slices of bread", for a few reasons:

It immediately conveys the message that we're talking about small amounts. Most people have an instinctive idea of what a slice of bread may be worth - even if they don't know the exact current price of a loaf of bread in fiat.
The price of a slice of bread expressed in sats keeps coming down over time. Currently at around 150 to 160 sats / slice of bread where I live. A year ago, it was around 320 sats. Again, most people know that they're paying more for bread today than a year ago. This sometimes starts an interesting conversation.
And the best part? If they show interest, I can take them along to see how I buy a loaf of bread for them with my SN sats. (OK, in reality, this has only happened once, but it was awesome to watch their reaction.)

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

That's a pretty incredible story! There's nothing like buying something with SN sats. My wife was a tiny bit impressed when I bought esims with SN earnings.

80 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford 18 Jan

I explain how infeasible it is to get small tips online. It just doesn't work for plebs. Then I explain how when someone likes what I write they can send me a bit of bitcoin(sat). Then I tell them his much I have been given in the last 6 months. I tell them, imagine if artists adopted this. What if people could directly give value for value with no gatekeepers or middle men. Usually their interest is peaked.

This is often how I talk about bitcoin. Its true value as a censorship resistant money. An inflation proof form of money. A permission less network without borders.

This is much more interesting than look at the price.

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @nullama 18 Jan

Yeah, lightning is a game changer as it allows to move Bitcoin in real time and in tiny amounts.

Plus, it comes with heaps of cool stuff like authentication

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

What if people could directly give value for value with no gatekeepers or middle men.

Emphasis on no middle men is good. I often forget to bring that up.

Middle money instead of middle men.

(I might need to workshop that one a bit)

105 sats \ 2 replies \ @supratic 18 Jan

it's like a "LIKE" but with monetary value embedded to it

Bigger is the like/zap, more value the other party will receive

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @cryotosensei 18 Jan

Yup this is how I will explain it: when someone LIKES your post, you get money along with approval

210 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

Money backed likes is good.

I'm hopeful that zaps becomes a word we can use just like likes.

111 sats \ 0 replies \ @kdnolan 18 Jan

"instead of someone giving you a lame thumbs up icon.. they send you Bitcoin" 🙂

60 sats \ 7 replies \ @brave 18 Jan

I call it the perfect way to express emotions on Bitcoin Lightning platforms

70 sats \ 6 replies \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

Maybe zaps will enter the lexicon just like the term emojis.

Although zaps are really only positive emotions. Maybe with downzaps we can express a negative emotion, but it's a little fuzzy to me how they work.

30 sats \ 5 replies \ @ek 18 Jan

Maybe with downzaps we can express a negative emotion

I think I heard term "zonk" for this once. Or maybe it was just @Car and @k00b during one episode of SNL where they tried to come up with something better than "downzap".

but it's a little fuzzy to me how they work.

Afaik, only SN has downzaps. We use these downzaps as a signal that you want to see less similar content by decreasing the trust to stackers who zapped this content before you.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

Right, but do I as a poster/commenter see if I've been downzapped?

(Cue the crowds to come show me what a zonk looks like...)

30 sats \ 3 replies \ @ek 18 Jan

Right, but do I as a poster/commenter see if I've been downzapped?

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

Doesn't downzapping lead to posts being outlawed (which I understand to be your posts only show up in wild west mode)?

If so, it'd be neat to experiment with letting a user know that their post violated norms of some sort.

30 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 18 Jan

Doesn't downzapping lead to posts being outlawed (which I understand to be your posts only show up in wild west mode)?

Ah, yes. But it needs to hit a global threshold.

If so, it'd be neat to experiment with letting a user know that their post violated norms of some sort.

There is no norm. It's just individual stackers telling us that they don't like this and want to see less content like this.

You'd have to ask these stackers why they downzapped it. But just like we don't show who zapped who, we also (especially) don't want to show who downzapped who.

So anything like this would have be opt-in. But I think when we allow attaching messages to zaps, we could also allow stackers to attach messages to downzaps—if they want.

61 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

there is no norm.

I wasn't thinking anything so formal, merely the "norm" that if I post an ad for some shitcoin airdrop I will probably end up getting downzapped.

I think attaching notes to downzaps is probably a bad idea. But I think letting a user see that a post or comment has been downzapped and to what extent could provide useful feedback.

I agree there isn't any norm, but SN, like every community has a culture, and there is a fuzzy edge past which people might do a thing that breaches the norm. They don't necessarily need anyone to tell them this but could benefit from a numeric visual aid to show them they are heading toward the badlands.

Also, I think they should definitely be called zonks.

reply on another page

71 sats \ 1 reply \ @nullama 18 Jan

zaps are Internet bits of awesomeness

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

Definitely like this way of putting it. Kinda goes along with the magic internet money vibes! I'm going to use this.

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @dd6800 18 Jan

A Proof-of-Work Like.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

POWs?

"My post yesterday got a ton of pows."

(Also needs workshopping)

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitByBit21 18 Jan

It's like a never ending Christmas Day when you're a kid

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @DiedOnTitan 18 Jan

Zaps: Instead of transferring your energy, your time, and your attention to a platform seeking to improve their advertising algorithms, you transfer energy directly to the author of the content you are reading at that moment. This reward and appreciation system has a positive effect on all participants. Zapping redistributes energy from the platform maintainers to the content creators and their readers and commenters.

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @DiedOnTitan 18 Jan

Zaps b*tch slaps likes.

(ducks for cover)

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @guts 18 Jan

Send satoshis on a fast Bitcoin network.

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @smuglydawg 18 Jan

This is a great question to help break out and help with mass adoption.

Tipping does have a bad reputation.

Cannot wait to see what saying because the victor in the vocabulary.

Satoshis for your thoughts?

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @satoshiplanet 18 Jan

Magic tips in L2 or just a way of saying thanks to someone who brings you value 💕⚡

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture 18 Jan

Value for Value

491 sats \ 3 replies \ @ladyluck 18 Jan

I call it appreciation to value received

31 sats \ 2 replies \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

This is a pretty accurate description but doesn't really roll off the tongue.

But it reminds me of throwing some money in a street musician's hat and I like that image more than tipping a driver or Batista. The former is a gift, while the latter is a fee.

151 sats \ 1 reply \ @windward 18 Jan

The former is a gift, while the latter is a fee.

exactly this

a zap implies a different sort of relationship vs a tip. thanking someone for something with something of value vs a monetary grade on the quality of their work.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

Yeah, tip isn't the right word.

But I'm looking for a single word or phrase I can use to describe this thing we are calling a zap. I think you are on to something with the idea of a thank you.

50 sats \ 2 replies \ @premitive1 18 Jan

I call it boosting because I'm an RSS junkie.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

Does boosting have a meaning in RSS outside podcasting 2.0/Fountain/bitcoin stuff?

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @premitive1 18 Jan

no, but it essentially has the same meaning. To lift something up or push something forward. with money in this case.

40 sats \ 4 replies \ @southside263 18 Jan

value4value⚡️

micro payments for content u enjoy

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

Micro-tipping is a term I've tried to use, but it's got tipping in it with all it's associations.

I like micro payments better.

50 sats \ 2 replies \ @southside263 18 Jan

Wiki:

The etymology for the synonym for tipping, "gratuity", dates back either to the 1520s, from "graciousness", from the French gratuité (14th century) or directly from Medieval Latin gratuitas, "free gift", probably from earlier Latin gratuitus, "free, freely given". The meaning "money given for favor or services" is first attested in the 1530s.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

Before I wrote the original post, I went down the synonyms rabbithole. There are some great words:

Bonus, alms, tithe...heck even calling it tribute is kinda cool. But I think most people will get distracted if I say we're bringing tribute back on the world wide web.

I like the emphasis on freely given, though. Too bad tip seems to have lost most of those connotations.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @southside263 18 Jan

“let me explain bro.

ZAPS are: ZAPS⚡️

got it. Cool.”

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @fredosha 18 Jan

I describe it as if I am sending billions of dollars to someone. Just call it "billions of dollars."

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @thebullishbitcoiner 18 Jan

Zaps are tips, but in bitcoin.

I often find myself saying that zaps are tips, but tips are a loaded word and usually imply a larger amount than a few pennies or fractions thereof.

I’m OK with it being loaded. If they don’t take the time to understand the value of sats, then they probably don’t care what a zap is either.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @sebastix 18 Jan

Tipping cents with digital money and explain this is superior to likes and other types of nonverbal feedback on the web.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @cryptofolyo 22 Jan

zaps are zaps zaps can be loaded in future 10 satoshi may be able to buy u a decent car in 2030

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @theswissroadtocrypto 22 Jan

you could explain that zaps are like sats on stacker news!

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @OriginalSize 18 Jan

I say I got zapped whatever number of sats today and then they ask how much that is and i say like 50 cents and they're like cool

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @fm 18 Jan

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @030e0dca83 18 Jan

It's like say thank you to random citizen, or be polite on the road with drivers next to you. Something that at first glance costs nothing however it gives some pleasure to people who get it

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby OP 18 Jan

It will be cool when zapping becomes so mainstream that it is a new form of etiquette.

Zapping is the polite thing to do.

"Can you believe, he didn't even zap it after using my meme."

"She jumps in the comments and asks all those questions and didn't even zap when she got answers."

Time to get our manners game on.