Until recently, I was under the impression that America was founded on the principles of free market capitalism, whereby private individuals and companies made their own economic decisions without a central government or state actor tipping the scales in favor of certain companies or individuals over others.
After reading Americana, it’s clear to me that I was wrong. The author Bhu Srinivasan makes the case from the earliest days of America’s existence, state and federal governments have played key roles in funding, protecting, and advancing US technology, as well as over-riding property rights, and regulating industries that become too powerful.
I was under the impression that this kind of state involvement in markets was mostly a modern phenomenon, but the track record of great American innovations that relied on state support tells me otherwise.
Below are a few interesting examples Bhu highlights in his book of government intervention in the early days of America…
Examples of Government Intervention in American Markets
  • In the 1790s, New York offered monopoly rights to entrepreneurs to create a steamboat that could successfully travel from Manhattan to Albany, enabling people to settle the interior of the state at scale. The first successful voyage in 1807 granted Robert Livingston and Robert Fulton a monopoly on all steamboat traffic in New York for 20 years.
  • In 1817, the state of New York funded America’s first long-distance canal with $7.8 million of debt, at a time when the entire US federal government budget was only $8 million. This project did work, and set off a chain-reaction of other states (Maryland, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and others) to fund similar canal projects, which ended up being responsible for 10x-ing the populations of the region now known as America’s Midwest.
  • In the early 1830s when entrepreneurs began trying to build railroads in America, states granted eminent domain rights to companies that forced property owners to sell their land in order to enable more direct rail lines.
  • In 1843 the US House of Representatives funded Samuel Morse with $30,000 to build a telegraph that would work across long distances in outdoor settings. Morse’s success eventually enabled instant communication across America.
  • The tariff act of 1870 imposed a $28/ton tariff on imported British steel (which cost $30-$40/ton without the tariff) to allow American steel producers to be profitable while they became more efficient and competitive. This worked, but meant that Americans were forced to pay almost twice as much for their steel in the late 1800s.
  • Governments created the limited-liability corporation, patents, copyrights, trademark rights that established the rules of American business, allowing inventors and entrepreneurs to earn for their work despite none of these concepts having any physical or natural precedent. These patents played crucial roles in the development of the electric light among other innovations.
  • The Sherman Act of 1890 forced monopoly businesses in many industries (which were originally legal) to unwind their consolidated powers. Standard Oil is the most famous example, but nearly every industrial vertical was trending towards monopoly “trusts” in the late 1800s prior to this government action.
  • Poor sanitation conditions in US meat-packing factories and unknown substances in patent medicines in the late 1800s led to the creation of the “Federal Meat Inspection Act” and “Pure Food and Drug Act”, which gave the federal government authority over quality assurance for “private products meant for private consumption”, eventually paving the way for the creation of the FDA.
Counterpoints
  • The automobile seems to have been mostly a free-market driven innovation. Henry Ford raised $28,000 from private investors to start Ford, and never raised another dollar for the rest of his life.
  • Prohibition in America was another example of government intervention, but ultimately created a temporary push back on government power, whereby many went underground to consume alcohol, often sourcing it from lower quality vendors, which countered the government food and drug regulations that were introduced a couple decades earlier.
There is a particular quote from Bhu I like which I think provides helpful nuance in understanding the role of capitalism in America over the last 400 years:
“American Capitalism was not intellectually rigid. It was never the laissez-faire laboratory of purist, principled imaginations. The strength of the system came through its pragmatism and flexibility, juggling competing and contradictory ideas… and eventually finding political solutions to seemingly intractable issues, especially after the scars of the civil war. Just as successful species adapted to changes in their environment, democracy would shape capitalism to adapt to social conditions, with compromise emerging as the best form of insurance against any risk of revolution. This middle ground, forrged by the clashing interactions of capitalism and democracy, a free people acting to check free markets, would give rise to the regulatory framework that would govern its economic system.”
A few questions for stackers:
  • What role do you think governments should play in free markets?
  • Are there any examples of free markets successfully preventing monopolies and ensuring transparency in food/drug products without any government intervention?
  • If America’s federal government never took steps to fund/protect/nurture early innovations, would America be more, less, or equally as successful as it is today?
  • What catalysts have led to the shifting role of America’s federal government from a position of nurturing and funding innovation to limiting innovation today?
this territory is moderated
Government is fine. The state is not. The state is a monopoly based in violence so the state should play no role in the market. The state should cease to exist. Governance is a part of pretty much every market. When the state gets out of the way private governance can flourish under competition.
This is a list of good things to look at. For almost all of them I have heard very convincing arguments or counter points. Some of these points you list are classic examples of the state taking credit for things that were already happening in the market. I would have to do some research to recall the sources. I went down this road for years and landed on my current stance.
Another thing to consider is the data showing that the more free a market the more prosperous. Of course many point to places like Somalia which doesn't have a state as examples to support the state but I think we can all see the flaws in that argument. If you start for nothing you can't compare that to the US or Switzerland.
Edit: I think there is a good debate to be had between minarchists. and anarchists. Minimal government or a night watchman state is far better than the direction the US and most of the west is headed.
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The FDA because it holds a monopoly like the CDC is subject to corruption in ways that would be harder to accomplish if it were market governance.
I recall listening to Bob Murphy and Tom Woods talk about this drug journal that has a very long history of finding issues with drugs 6-12 months before the FDA even looks at them. Some of the issue is with the lack of competition and part is the susceptibility for corruption because of the centralization.
I have a question for you. Do you look at Yelp and Google reviews of a restaurant or do you look up their grade by the health department. Can we not imagine how much better it would be to have multiple decentralized health reviews on restaurants? We have many examples of voluntary private review of businesses.
Another example is lab door. A great resource for looking at the quality of vitamins and supplements. One of the other issue I think of in the area is how the state monopoly and their re-enforcement of the expertise leads people to trust institutions they should be skeptical of. Most people are more skeptical of private businesses but less skeptical of government institutions like the FDA or CDC. I believe we'd be better off with competing institutions that are voluntary. The masses need to be more skeptical. We are conditioned to trust our governments. Businesses have to win our business. The state does not. We should be skeptical of both but the pysop of the state and its education system conditions us against viewing the state as a ruler. The system is designed to make us believe that we are the state. That the government is us. It is not. That's the larger lie.
Keep asking questions. I think the state has helped in some situations. I just believe on the whole the damage has been greater than the benefit. I don't think anyone would argue that if you got rid of one company the world would end, but this is the mentality about the state by its defenders.
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20 sats \ 4 replies \ @kr OP 24 Jan
Do you look at Yelp and Google reviews of a restaurant or do you look up their grade by the health department?
excellent point, do you know of any Yelp-like systems that were tried in the late 1800s back when people were putting cocaine and all sorts of crazy substances in food and drinks? i’m sure someone made an attempt at separating good from bad in the private market before the FDA was established…
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The free press raised the issues but I can't recall the details. Word of mouth.
As technology advances the arguments for states functioning as governments with monopolies gets weaker and weaker. I can see why paper money came to be used over gold. After reading more about the progress/evolution of money it made more sense to me. But to argue that fiat is superior to bitcoin today is crazy.
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20 sats \ 2 replies \ @kr OP 24 Jan
got it, so as access to communication technology improves (leading to information symmetry), you’re suggesting that the task of regulating things like food and drug markets should shift from the state to private actors?
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I am. I would love to see a move in this direction. The problem is that institutions like the SEC, FDA, and CDC will NEVER reduce their size and scope. The incentives are such that they will expand and suck more life out of the economy. They are leaches. They distort the market. The temp market actors to cheat by offering bribes and favors for favorable treatment of their operations. They are a corrupting force.
Now, of course people will try to game or cheat Yelp and Google reviews. But neither have a monopoly and to the extent they have market dominance I would suggest the state creates the environment where companies like Amazon and Google can gain dominance. Regulatory capture is a thing and often I see people blaming the market for things the state creates. The state tips the scales. It can't help itself.
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20 sats \ 0 replies \ @kr OP 24 Jan
makes sense.
directly fighting the continued overreach of these agencies doesn’t seem to be much help, so perhaps we need another Bitcoin moment for some system to disrupt the status quo in a completely roundabout way.
i haven’t thought much about what such a system might look like though…
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20 sats \ 3 replies \ @kr OP 24 Jan
Government is fine. The state is not.
When you look at the history of America, was there a point at which the federal government became “the state”?
Trying to get a better understanding of the distinction you’re making between the two, and the events that might have led to the creation of “the state”.
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That's a good question that I have never thought about. When I say government I mean the function of governing. Examples.
  • I govern my home
  • The bitcoin rules govern bitcoin
  • Consortium govern industries (privately)
  • There are private governments for certain cities.
When I refer to the State I am using the anarchist definition.
an institution that claims a monopoly on violence over a given territory.
I am sure libertarians and anarchists would have an answer.
If you'd like to dive into the topic of the history of the State I highly recommend The Monopoly on Violence on Prime
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Here's a shorter explanation.
Government is a function. The state is an institution that can provide the function.
Government is not dependent on a state. It occurs with and without state involvement. It occurs out of necessity. If there is a market need for governance it will arise.
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43 sats \ 0 replies \ @kr OP 24 Jan
got it, appreciate the clarifications and the reco!
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What role do you think governments should play in free markets?
In short, I believe that should be as free as possible. However, cannot become a lawless Wild West 🤠
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52 sats \ 1 reply \ @kr OP 24 Jan
do you think America has done a good job of balancing those two competing ideas in the past?
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To be honest, I don't know. I'm sure that it has achieved balance in some situations, but not in others. I don't have enough knowledge to answer. One thing I'm sure of is that governments in Europe are much less liberal.
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What role do you think governments should play in free markets?
Abolishing themselves
Are there any examples of free markets successfully preventing monopolies and ensuring transparency in food/drug products without any government intervention?
Monopolies arise from state protections. In a free market there is always at least the implicit competition of new entrants. Here's a fairly short essay on the subject from David R. Henderson.
The transparency part is tougher, because the rise of giant state regulatory agencies coincided with the decline in agrarian society. People did know where their food came from before the administrative state, because they mostly grew it themselves.
People sure do seem a lot sicker than they used to be, so I'm not sure the state is doing such a bang-up job safeguarding our health.
If America’s federal government never took steps to fund/protect/nurture early innovations, would America be more, less, or equally as successful as it is today?
Empirical evidence weighs heavily against state monopoly protections for intellectual property. I suspect the same holds for other aspects of innovation. All the state does is channel resources away from where people most want them to go, so the extra innovation from the state will generally be less aligned with what people want than the foregone innovations that were crowded out.
What catalysts have led to the shifting role of America’s federal government from a position of nurturing and funding innovation to limiting innovation today?
Are you sure that's what's happened? Maybe the form shifted from direct funding to indirectly subsidizing private innovators or academics. Maybe less innovation that is directly funded gets disclosed to the public.
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406 sats \ 5 replies \ @kr OP 24 Jan
Monopolies arise from state protections. In a free market there is always at least the implicit competition of new entrants
how do you square this idea with the economies of scale that arise as a market leader grows larger? won’t they naturally trend towards becoming a monopoly?
Are you sure that's what's happened?
Yes, in that last point I’m sharing my personal opinion, it seems to me like America doesn’t value innovation to the extent they did in the early industrial years.
AI is a great example of this, the federal government seems way more concerned with regulating and limiting AI than helping it succeed.
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Economies of scale have limits. Firms have the same problem as governments with a lack of internal profit and loss accounting. Eventually, that inefficiency overtakes economies of scale.
On the innovation point, I definitely think you're right about the prevailing attitude being one of fear, rather than optimism. I have a half-baked hypothesis about why new communications technologies bring down existing regimes. It might be that the US power structure was designed to be resilient to the types of communications technologies that existed before the internet and now they feel threatened by something they know they can't control.
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384 sats \ 3 replies \ @kr OP 24 Jan
interesting theory.
there’s a section in Bhu’s book that talks about radio and how challenging it was in the early days to prevent people from interfering with other broadcasts on the same frequency… which led to the government licensing of radio frequencies to maintain clean lines of communication
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It's a good example of how scientific advancements can require us to rethink our property rights framework.
I think market coordination could have solved that, though, since it's not in anybody's interest to broadcast an indecipherable message.
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384 sats \ 1 reply \ @kr OP 24 Jan
it's not in anybody's interest to broadcast an indecipherable message
however, it could be in the interests of adversaries to make sure Americans are unable to hear important broadcasts, and this seems like without government intervention the costs for someone to interfere would remain incredibly low.
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I doubt adversaries care about having the proper FCC licensing. The ability to disrupt radio communications is readily available and it's easy enough to do without getting caught immediately.
The difference between a market solution and the government solution would be pretty minor, functionally. Instead of leasing the frequency from the government, radio operators would rely on arbitrators to recognize homesteading of frequencies based on who used it first. At least that's my guess.
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211 sats \ 0 replies \ @fm 25 Jan
What role do you think governments should play in free markets?
I dont believe a truly free market can exist.
On a true free market, you would have slave work and stolen goods. I believe in some regulations
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What is government?
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