Serious question:
What stops politicians from just saying that:
- only transactions from kyc ed addresses are legal, all others are illegal
- if your business accepts non kyced BTC, you get fined double or triple of the amount you received
- if you accept it as a private person, you go to jail.
Pretty simple.
90% of people would comply immediately, we saw that with the Covid Theater and the experimental gene therapy sold as vaccine. Then we are policing each other, asking for KYC if the address is not kyced in a public or gov database. Then we rat out others who do not comply. Welcome to Hell
Do you think this can not happen? What tools do we have against such a step?
Maybe i am missing something but that seems like a very easy thing to do for governments. No?
These kinds of posts reminds me of cat people hiding in the metaphorical basement in the late 90s when the internet was breaking out
It's ironic how people's fear of slavery ironically is what enslaves them. Spooks put out a FUD article in the MSM and bluff the sheep into an unwitting compliance, it's hilarious.
Still waiting to find out where the government as going to hire the jackboots from to enforce those internet drivers licenses... time is a flat circle.
sure, the freezing of the accounts of people who donated to the trucker protests - nothing to see here,
The people who would immediately comply aren't even in bitcoin yet.
Most People who got in after 2015/2016 are in it for the money. They will sell their mom to get a patting from the government.
In order to get to the bullet points you list, a government would first have to acknowledge BTC as legal tender, which seems like a huge step for most of the larger economies (including the US) at this stage. I can't reasonable see it happening in the next five years. And in the meantime, BTC's global power just grows, which will make cracking down on it harder.
But I also can't imagine them legalizing it without also having a reasonably fast payment system in place, either lightning or some new thing they come up with, and once those sats are on L2, they're a lot harder to KYC. So they could make demands (and might be able to enforce them on businesses, though I'd bet some start keeping two sets of books), but person-to-person BTC transfers could continue to happen just like they do now.
IMO they (the state) have no legal standing in declaring tender of: 1) an open-source software, 2) that software being used globally. Regardless of words on paper, they only have the power we concede to them on this matter. Pick your hill.
why does it need to be legal tender first?
about lightning - third party hosted lightning wallets have zero privacy. Blink or Wallet of Satoshi know all your transactions. Others know your payment comes from Blink - so the government knows where to get all the data it needs.
Selfhosted lightning is different - but a pain in the ass, no normie wants to manage their channel liquidity, even most bitcoiners dont want to. Thats why most use third party hosted lightning.
Which gives them: no privacy and no control over their coins. Third party lighning wallets are like paypal for bitcoin.
Perhaps the term "legal tender" means different things to Americans and Europeans. Maybe it's best to avoid it altogether.
Take Turkey for example. You can legally buy and sell Bitcoin (with KYC), but the only legal means of payment is the Turkish Lira.
so what does it have to do with my questions?
If it's not legal tender, they can't regulate businesses accepting it via KYC-only. It would be like things currently are, where business would have to convert anything they took to fiat for tax reporting purposes. They could still ban it outright, but that in and of itself is easy enough to get around.
Yeah, selfhosted lightning isn't something Joe Average is ready for, but I'm assuming that things will get easier on that front in the next few years (possibly a bad assumption).
i dont get why it needs to be legal tender. If i pay with gold for example, there are laws that i can not pay in a non kyc form above 3k or 10k. I can pay with gold but the receiver has to kyc me.
Covid lockdowns worked because they (those with power) convinced a good part of the population they were either A: going to die B: going to kill someone else (especially relatives)
Bitcoin has no such boogeymen. Banning Bitcoin in “free” countries would be a masks off moment with devastating consequences for existing power structures.
here are three:
i have no doubt the propaganda media can pull out 10 other reasons out of their asses in no time.
If you haven't seen them, the Eric Voskuil talks from 5/6 years ago are good to watch to get an idea of how this will play out:
e.g. https://yewtu.be/watch?v=5cmPGBl88ig
Spoiler alert: They will say all of that... but you ignore them and use it anyway. Those who listen to the state will suffer the full brunt of the hyperinflation.
will watch it, thank you!
specially if the BTC price goes to the moon
the other 10% would migrate to XMR?
Where? Globally? Not a chance. Any country that makes such a move has just improved the immigration numbers for El Salvador (and a growing list of countries that respect human rights, including privacy).
yes, globally, like they did when they told the covid story. Also, research the covid mandates in El Salvador - you couldnt leave your fucking house. No clue why people think that El Salvador respects human rights.
Yeah, and in China there were cases were people have had their doors welded shut as a means to keep them in.
If Big Daddy gov wants to, it can take the air out of Bitcoin's tyres, but IMHO not without some immensely hard to back-up laws and moves on their citizens - All those efforts for a big "nothing burger" like Bitcoin?
I Doubt it.
IMHO They'll make some moves, but nothing quite strong enough to really make a dent - and suddenly it's too big to ban, pushing them to work with it, rather than against it.
why should they ban it? the chain is fully transparent, a surveillance dream for the government
i agree with you, the risk is high that something like this will happen, especially when nation states become desperate when they lose their power.
but i think this place is the wrong place to ask, most people here are somewhat emotional and religious about bitcoin.
emotions and logic can not exist at the same place at the same time.
The truth shouldn't mind being questioned. Only cult-like societies try to silence people who ask questions.
yea, sad.
I agree with you and thanks that it's your comment which clearly states the overall situation here on SN. SN needs to grow and get above the notion of religion for Bitcoin only mentality.
Thanks @Darthcoin_Cash for challenging and fighting against the whole narrative. It really sucks when anyone tries to impact your mentality with his trolling genius. I know some of them and I despise them.
I want discussions to be open and healthy. We live in a world of probabilities where anything may happen anytime. We don't know. So, why not be more open and be prepared for every kind of event.
true
You are right, i am already outlawed. What a bunch of losers.
Since no one else on this page says it, I might as well:
B/C we're all used to using cash. (Paper bills & electronic)
That's the benchmark that we all have in our minds already.
For your govt to set a new benchmark on BTC transactions with far less usability/freedom, it will stick out like a sore thumb and be noticed by everyone. People won't like it, every one of us. Therefore, our political organizations (and bitcoiners have some of the best-funded PACs in existence already!) will keep bad laws like the one you're suggesting from being passed.
And as for a global effort? LOL; some countries like the Arab states & Israel, Russia & Ukraine, or North Korea & Japan, will never agree with each other on any issue. It's just too polarized out there to pass any global framework uniformly.
That's a complete nonsense and bullshit!
You choose what to comply and what not Read about pseudo-anonymity
Government can put you in jail for anything you and the community agree on - if you don't believe me - go and research about Julian Assange. He's imprisoned for simply exposing the truth and making US government uncomfortable with their own fabrications.
how is this related to my post?
Government can put you in jail for anything you and the community agree on - if you don't believe me - go and research about Julian Assange. He's imprisoned for simply exposing the truth and making US government uncomfortable with their own fabrications.
You choose what to comply and what not
repeating the same words does not make it easier to understand how that relates to what i wrote.
I'm providing the context of my reply relating to parts of your quotes
i dont get what julian assange and the fact that they can put you in jail for whatever they dislike has to do with my questions about the implications about the non existent privacy on chain has to do with each other?
Also, you choose what you comply with - but in a transaction, there are two parties involved.
this is NOT a serious question. and it's not new. you must be new, or moderately good at farming for content.
so, enlighten us why it is not a serious question?
I must confess that SN is for Bitcoin Only. Anyone who wants to do reporting on other subjects, they are not welcome here.
However, I'm not an astute, so I may be wrong.
I can only tell you what I truly believe. I believe that it's not the Bitcoin alone that can challenge governments. It's the whole ecosystem of crypto that we need for the sake of decentralization and mainstream crypto adoption. Until and unless crypto doesn't go mainstream, governments can tear down the whole narrative of 'democratic money'.
I have written a article about how one should approach towards Bitcoin, Altcoins, memecoins and other types of coins.
Nothing. That's the danger of digital currency.
?
Nothing can stop those above concerns other than groups of people not doing them.
Let’s see how events unfold in Europe
The only one that can ban you from bitcoin is yourself. Adoption will grow regardless. And the U.S government lost the "war on drugs", I doubt that they'd be able to muster enough cohesion to avoid getting sucked into the bitcoin incentive machine. And there is a strong moral case for disobeying unjust laws, especially ones birthed from ignorance, envy, or spite.
i dont see where i talked about banning someone from bitcoin?
About unjust laws: People were not allowed to visit their dying parents in hospital when everybody was playing in the Covid theater. Not being able to be with your loved ones in your last minutes is one of the worst things i can imagine.
I saw no one disobeying those obviously unjust and tyrannical laws. Sheeple will not rise up.
2 words - civil disobedience What is that Malcom X quote? Governments are making all sorts of things "illegal" according to their own laws that they make up. People in London are saying fuck them and felling surveillance cameras like trees, with angle grinders. They are valid questions though as they have the potential to make life difficult for people who want to mind their own business
The weakness IS being a registered corporation. Communism has hacked the "democratic" system.
Your rights have always depended on people collectively asserting and enforcing our rights and freedoms, by any and all means necessary. The state thinks they can control all things on earth by writing words on paper, then having a procedural vote - and showing up with guns to enforce it. Dark times ahead pleb?
I agree, thats why we should build systems which make it impossible for the state to go after us.
But the number go up boys in here dont want to hear that.
I think that the global COVID compliance is not 100% transferrable to every situation, there is something uniquely scary to the human psyche about something they cannot see vs money something that all people are uniquely familiar with
Can you define "accept it as a private person"? If my KYC'd address gets leaked I would go to jail if anyone sent bitcoin to it?
Something like that. Maybe you need to report the transaction and send it to a gov address to avoid fines or jail time.
Inherent privacy via lightning fixes this for the most part. It's just impossible for the government to truly enforce.
self hosted lightning - i agree. But most people use third party hosted lightning, which offers no privacy at all as the wallet provider sees every transaction
They'd have to catch you first. The tax system is already leaky and requiring more and more tax agents. Widespread noncompliance would be untenable to deal with.
do you think any business will not comply or risk fines for your privacy?
People will just start to ignore the government entirely. Not registering as a business, not filing for taxes, and ignore any mail from the IRS.
sure, like they did not wear a mask. or get a jab. or a booster. and another booster. and rat out their neighbours because they celebrated their kids birthday.
That's a nice hood you live in.
planet earth
What first comes to my mind is that you don't have to accept Bitcoin; you simply receive it. So, whenever this begins, non-KYC coins will be sent to documented legal addresses. How do you inform your government that these coins are from a customer or a person who intended to expose you to triple fines?
peer to peer transactions are impossible to track? wut?
Pairing Tor with a VPN for peer-to-peer (P2P) transactions not only strengthens anonymity but also adds layers of privacy. As technology evolves, governments must keep up. That's where Cypherpunks come in. Additionally, P2P nodes play a crucial role in maintaining this decentralized network.
tor and vpn have no impact on the fact that your transaction is on a public ledger. Its like accessing your online banking with a vpn and thinking the bank does not know who your are :)
I think this is likely. Worth noting that non kyc addresses and commerce will still exist for sure, but people just won't send non kyc bitcoin to kyc addresses and that is that.
On the other hand, things might not play out this way, depending on the incentives and general capabilities of law enforcement, but the possibility is real
when you think this is likely, arent we currently building tools for our overlords to surveil and control us while we jump around and celebrate Bitcoin as a freedom technology?
I'd say whatever we do can be misused. There isn't much sense in stopping to use something that is good because it may be used as a weapon.
While it is likely laws like these can get passed, it's also likely to exist countries that do the opposite. Not to mention that, in terms of resistance to KYC laws, bitcoin is leagues better than normal bank accounts.
nobody said stop using a thing. I just want to emphasize that we need to get the privacy issue fixed immediately if we dont want to create a tool to control us from something which was supposed to liberate us.
I agree, I used to say similar in r/Bitcoin back in the day but the community don't like to hear it. What would help fight against it would be for Bitcoin to be private by default and a decentralized exchange that works on par with a centralized one. Then they would have a harder time enforcing it without requiring KYC for regular transactions to a store, which would be excessive.
Good to have some critical thinkers here. Too many people make a religion out of it and treat every concern or critique as heresy. The more time passes, the more unlikely it is that bitcoin gets any privacy features - and if it finally does, the ETFs could own so much corn that they can let the privacy enhanced chain fork off and die.
I dont really get why this does not get addressed by the community, it is a pressing issue since more than 10 years now.
Privacy doesn’t have to be on L1.
FYI your comments are outlawed now, probably because others noticed you weren’t engaging in good faith discussion (reeee covid reee vaccines boosters reee).
I can’t read them without extra effort I’m not willing to expend but you are free to scream into the void.
thanks for letting me know. Makes the whole stacker crowd look like little girls crying that somebody said something they dont want to hear about their favorite barbie costume.
i agree, i said the same in 2017 with UASF and 2x. But after 6 years, the state of lightning is fucked, using a self hosted lightning wallet is a total pain in the ass.
Most people use third party hosted lightning wallets because of that, self hosted lightning is way to complicated still after 6 years.
And third party hosted wallets provide absolute zero privacy by design.
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congratulations, you did not understand anything