I'm closing my old 300 channels Lightning node, here are the reasons \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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I'm closing my old 300 channels Lightning node, here are the reasons

11k sats \ 74 comments \ @javier 30 Mar bitcoin

GM stackers!!

(español abajo)

I am new to Stacker, but I am an old gangster who has been in Bitcoin since 2011, and have experienced all the ups and downs of Bitcoin.

Since around 2018, I have been running a Lightning node that has become quite popular, with up to 8 BTC of liquidity and around 300 channels. At first it was on LND, but then I switched to CLIGHTNING due to all the bugs that LND had and which caused me to lose some money. Not only that, my node is running entirely on a mobile 4G connection, as I am always moving and don't want my node in a data center because I'm paranoid about controlling my machines, especially with Bitcoin, the great treasure.

Since then, the number of channels in my node has decreased from 300 to 150 to 100, then 50, and so on, as well as the liquidity, down to 2 BTC. The reason for this is mainly something I didn't suspect before starting this adventure, and it is that maintaining a Lightning node requires a lot of work. For this reason, three years ago, I gave up working on the node, installed CLBOSS (an automatic node maintenance software), and to be honest, it has worked quite well and done a better job than me.

However, even with CLBOSS, I have suffered many problems that have also caused me to lose money. The worst of these problems was that the SSD where my node resided got damaged, causing corruption in the CLIGHTNING database and forcing the closure of half of my channels, losing a significant amount in miner fees.

Despite all this, I tried to update CLIGHTNING and another new bug prevented me from doing so, and that was the last straw. So much effort, for what? With all the routing, I barely earned 400ksats, which doesn't even cover maintenance costs, let alone my time. So I made a list of reasons why a normal person, or "plebeian," might not be interested in maintaining a Bitcoin node, and there are many:

Too much work and time spent maintaining the node.
Meager earnings.
High technical knowledge requirements if you really want to have more than 5 or 10 channels and resolve technical issues that will undoubtedly arise in the years to come.
Limited mobile options (forces you to set up a reverse proxy with a VPS in some datacenter if you want to use clearnet).
Excessive risk, money is at stake and hardware can fail, or a bug in the software could arise.
Limited automation options (the only one that works well is CLBOSS and it's only available for CLIGHTNING).
Periodic headaches.

For all these reasons, I have decided that maintaining a Lightning node, despite having had it for years, is not worth it, no matter how much enthusiasm I have or how much I like Bitcoin and Lightning. I join the long list of plebeyans who shut down their node.

From now on, I will only use the options available for normal users. In particular, Electrum for desktop and Phoenix, Breez, Zeus for mobile, because they are more than sufficient for me. I live off Bitcoin and need immediate liquidity to use P2P exchanges like Robosats or coupon sites like Bitrefill, or simply pay with Lightning to small businesses and friends. And for that, I don't need a node. That is the reality.

I think Lightning nodes are for entities that handle large daily liquidity and justify investing resources in technical knowledge and time on them, such as stores, social networks, wallets, exchanges, etc. For everyone else, it's better to use the countless options that Lightning offers for desktop and mobile.

Thank you for reading. I welcome comments.

Spanish:

Soy nuevo en stacker pero soy un viejo ganster que está en Bitcoin desde el 2011, y he vivido todos los vaivenes de Bitcoin.

Desde el 2018 aproximadamente mantengo un nodo de Lightning que ha llegado a ser bastante popular, con hasta 8 BTC de liquidez y cerca de 300 canales. Primero lo tenía en LND, pero luego lo pase a CLIGHTNING debido a los muchos bugs que LND tenía y que me hicieron perder algo de dinero. No solo eso, mi nodo está corriendo enteramente con una conexión móvil 4G, pues me desplazo habitualmente y no quiero tener mi nodo en un datacenter, ya que soy paranoico acerca del control de mis máquinas, y más cuando se trata de Bitcoin, el gran tesoro.

Desde entonces, el número de canales en mi nodo se ha ido reduciendo desde 300 hasta 150 canales, y luego 100, y luego 50, así como la liquidez, hasta 2 BTC. El motivo de esto se debe básicamente a algo que no sospeché antes de iniciarme en esta aventura, y es que mantener un nodo de Lightning requiere mucho trabajo. Por este motivo hace 3 años desistí de seguir trabajando para el nodo, e instalé CLBOSS, un software de mantenimiento automático de nodos, y la verdad, ha funcionado bastante bien y ha hecho mejor trabajo que yo.

Sin embargo, incluso con CLBOSS, he sufrido muchos problemas, que me han hecho también perder dinero. El peor de estos problemas es que se me estropeó el SSD donde residía el nodo, causando corrupción en la base de datos de CLIGHTNING, y forzando el cierre de la mitad de mis canales, perdiendo bastante dinero en comisiones de minero.

Con todo y con eso, ayer mismo intenté actualizar CLIGTNING y otro nuevo bug me impide hacerlo, y ya ha sido la gota que ha colmado el vaso. Tanto esfuerzo, ¿para qué? Apenas he ganado 400ksats con todo el enrutamiento, que casi no cubre los gastos de mantenimiento, ni mucho menos mi tiempo. Así que he hecho una lista de motivos por los cuales a una persona normal, o un "plebleyo", no le interesa mantener un nodo de Bitcoin, y son muchos:

Demasiado trabajo y tiempo gastado en mantener el nodo.
Escasas ganancias.
Elevados conocimientos técnicos si realmente quieres tener más de 5 o 10 canales y resolver problemas técnicos que sin ninguna duda surgirán con los años.
Limitadas opciones móviles (te fuerza a hacer un proxy reverso con una VPS en algún datacenter si quieres usar clearnet).
Excesivo riesgo, hay en juego dinero y el hardware puede fallar, o un bug en el software puede surgir.
Escasas opciones de automatización (la única que funciona bien es CLBOSS y solo está disponible para CLIGHTNING).
Dolores de cabeza periódicos.

Por todo esto, he decidido que mantener un nodo Lightning, a pesar de que llevo años con él, no merece la pena, por mucho entusiasmo que tenga y por mucho que me guste Bitcoin y Lightning. Me uno así a la larga lista de plebeyos que apagan su nodo.

A partir de ahora simplemente usaré las opciones que hay para usuarios normales. En particular, Electrum para escritorio y Phoenix, Breez, Zeus para móviles, porque para mi uso son más que suficientes. Yo vivo de Bitcoin y necesito liquidez inmediata para usar exchanges p2p como Robosats, o sitios de cupones como Bitrefill, o simplemente pagar con Lightning a pequeños comercios y amigos. Y para eso, NO necesito un nodo. Esa es la realidad.

Creo que los nodos LN son para entidades que manejen mucha liquidez diaria y les merezca la pena poner los recursos técnicos y de conocimiento sobre ellos, como por ejemplo tiendas, redes sociales, wallets, exchanges, etc. Para todos los demás, es mejor usar las innumerables opciones que Lightning nos ofrece para móviles y escritorio.

Gracias por leerme. Atiendo a comentarios.

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3149 sats \ 3 replies \ @DarthCoin 30 Mar

Thank you for this excellent described story of your node.

I concur with part of your experience (I wrote about it in many of my guides about LN nodes and experiments I've done).

Most of what you describe is also mentioned in my guides, trying to raise an alarm for all those noobs that are jumping straight into running public nodes with no idea what they are doing.

Is very good that old bitcoiners like you are explaining these aspects, so others can learn more and do not do the same steps. I am not saying that were good or bad steps. We are all learning from own mistakes, errors, struggles. Is part of this Bitcoin journey.

What I will want to add to your post are the following.

I see the LN (Lightning Network) as the PAYMENT NETWORK of Bitcoin.

Bitcoin onchain is the main base, the settlement. That works pretty well now and represents the VALUE.
LN is the "water" flow of this base layer, that needs to flow around, to be used as MONEY. The LN channels are like pipes, through which are flowing the sats (water). And managing these pipes REQUIRE a lot of resources, knowledge, patience, infrastructure.

Bitcoin (onchain) cannot go forward without LN. It will be almost impossible to use it as money soon, only using onchain. LN cannot exist and function without a strong base layer (onchain). LN is actually just a delayed onchain tx, no more no less. Is just not broadcast in the moment of the payment, it is broadcast and settled onchain only when the peers are closing that channel. But IT IS a real BTC onchain tx.

How I see LN topology from now on:

Level 1

The large base of large public nodes with a lot of liquidity, nodes that can last a long time and put a lot of capital at stake. You also earn more money, but they are the ones who put in the most money. We need this strong base of big nodes ! It doesn't matter if are big companies, banks. They are the ones that keep moving the "water".

Level 2

LSPs (those that are intermediaries between public and private nodes), also with good connections, but not much capital is necessary, but not little either. It is very important for them to have well balanced channels and fees accessible to the "entry level" of users. These LSPs are mainly public nodes by main wallet apps, but also other players that want to be this bridge between public routing and private use of LN

Level 3

The plebs nodes, the poor ones, who want to learn and level up. But very few are going to resist because they don't have much capital. At this level you were... and you couldn't resist. Nothing wrong with that. You did your part, helping the network as much as you could. And thank you for that.

Level 4

Private, mobile nodes (Zeus, Blixt, Mutiny, Breez, Electrum, Phoenix, Nayuta etc.) These depend 100% on the LSPs. These private nodes DO NOT ROUTE! Just use privately the LN. And is nothing wrong with this. These are the MAIN real users of LN, because are the ones that made the payments.

This way we will have the LN functional. And new users, should choose wisely their position in this network.

152 sats \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

Such a beautiful response. Thank you very much!!

My initial intentions with the node was to be Level 1, and frankly, I think I did that for some time at the begining with 8 BTC of liquidity. Those were the times when only 4 crazy people used Lightning. But at this point, it makes no sense. Specially if I have a node in such precarious situation using a 4G connection. So I guess I went from Level 1 to Level 3 and finally Level 4, which is my real level, honestly.

Eveybody should consider your level description, should be put on top of the README.md on every node software of github.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @anon 30 Mar

wow Darth strikes again.... Don't you said that you will retire?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Darthcoin_Cash 30 Mar outlawed

stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.

62 sats \ 1 reply \ @_vnprc 30 Mar

I ran a few casa nodes way back in the day. The hard drive kept failing. I think maybe it was too hot. Casa always replaced the hardware but I still don't know if/how much money I lost. After the 3rd hd failure I packed it up. Not worth the effort and funds risk. I am always surprised to read how much more time, effort, and funds others put into running personal LN nodes.

I think you're making the right choice. Mobile wallets are quite good these days. Sorry to hear about the lost funds.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

Yep, HDDs are not reliable, it's much better an SSD. Even with the SSD, it's better to oversize it because there is a limit on how much writings you can do.

25 sats \ 1 reply \ @Lumor 30 Mar

Do you think you could have taken higher total fees?

123 sats \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

I think so, in fact most of the fees I got was thank to CLBOSS, a software that I highly recommend for "pleb nodes". https://github.com/ZmnSCPxj/clboss

In the beginning I was obtaining less fees doing all the work by myself. I certainly was not as good as CLBOSS at adjusting fees and selecting nodes to open channels to. I can tell you confidently, if I would have started with CLBOSS in the beginning (but it didn't exist yet) with 8 BTC, I could have probably 10x-20x the amount of fees I have earn. So I have earn 400k, it would have been like 4M-8M with 8 BTC. It's around 1% yearly of your liquidity for small nodes, but probably up to 2% for bigger nodes, in my calculations. Add to that that I had a creepy connection, sometimes hours or days without connection, so yes, I could have earn a much higher fees.

154 sats \ 4 replies \ @Wumbo 30 Mar

Thank you for the write up.

I think the phases of lightning node running you described is very common: 1st - Set up some channels - "How does this thing work" Phase 2nd - Lets grow this thing - "I can be a super node" Phase 3rd - Technical glitch - "Oh shit! What Happen" Phase 4th - To much exposure - "Maybe I should limit my risk" Phase 5th - Shut it down - "Is it even worth it" Phase

For any new/future lightning node runners out there. You probably just need few channels for a few million Sats.

153 sats \ 2 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

You are probably right, but take into consideration my node was very old, so it took me like 5 or 6 years to realize it.

I think the main problem I had is excessive enthusiasm and not allocating resources properly. Why did I need a node? Truly for nothing. I just wanted to fuck govs and banks. But I can do it with just normal wallets.

112 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 30 Mar freebie

Why did I need a node?

VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION ! Many noobs do not start with this question, because they do not know that exist 2 main types: public and private.

Yes, you need a node, but which type, what use case, because are many types, as I described in these guides:

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

So great posts, thank you.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 30 Mar

Well said with those phases. Only that those phases are part of another "level" (level 3 I described here). Some of node runners could go further, some don't.

Noobs should learn from these stories and pay attention to the details. Maybe some of them will have better resources or use cases.

Is all about use case.

131 sats \ 1 reply \ @TNStacker 30 Mar

Great write up and thanks for sharing! Reading @DarthCoin's guides kept me from jumping right in to node management. I love the node is on the phone options and use Zeus and Blixtwallet to self-custody my LN Sats.

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

Good plan. 👍

242 sats \ 4 replies \ @notgeld 30 Mar

Thanks for sharing this.

This is interesting new information to consider. I have a different angle, for example, in this post. But the point is pretty much the same.

https://notgeld.medium.com/war-and-lightning-network-86f30cdc5c09

Despite that, I am still optimistic about Lightning. This is why we decided to continue maintaining the Valet, which is the SBW fork.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.btcontract.walletfiat

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

I feel bad hearing about power outage supply issues in Ukraine, but to be clear, my post is not a critique of Lightning, rather it's more to explain that under my circumstances and many others, it's not worth maintaining a node. I continue to use LN wallets pretty much daily, and intend to do so even more in the future.

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @notgeld 30 Mar

my post is not a critique of Lightning

I would rather be critical. Recently, after a while, I resumed working with Core Lightning and noticed nearly the same issues as 2-3 years ago when I decided to try Eclair. I have some bad aftertaste after Eclair, but it is different; I merely tried to build Eclair plugins, and lots of effort has been wasted.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @javier OP 30 Mar

Isn't Phoenix using Eclair? I think it is a powerful software, and if there are bugs, well, you know, you can help solving them.

About CLN, here is the bug that triggered me yesterday: https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/issues/7183

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @notgeld 30 Mar

Sure. But as Fiatjaf once well put, Eclair is Phoenix's backend, essentially. It is very good and faster than any other implementation out there.

About a bug, I feel really bad. This is a migration issue that should have been tested.

64 sats \ 1 reply \ @wow 30 Mar

I've been running a node since 2019. I use my node to make payments so I'm less concerned with making money routing. I recently started testing Mutiny and found that it's even cheaper than using my own node. I believe we've already reached the point where it does not make sense for a pleb to run a lightning node.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

Yeah, it's time for you to move on.

20 sats \ 2 replies \ @cryotosensei 30 Mar

Thank you for your service.

Do you have any regrets now that this has turned out to be a failed venture?

151 sats \ 1 reply \ @javier OP 30 Mar

No regrets. Take in count that I started very early, so I'm sure I helped for liquidity in the early steps of LN. After all, I helped quite a lot routing many payements, believe it or not, more than 200k payments went through my node, which is quite a high number considering the low liquidity (8 BTC in the beginning and then 2-4 BTC in recent years) in comparison with bigger nodes.

It's just that we have come to a point in which individual nodes are not needed any more, the network is very well stablished, and the work and worries it requires to maintain a node is excessive for an individual.

Also, I have learn quite a lot and I can say now that I know very well how Bitcoin and Lightning works, and I am very confident in technical matters.

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @cryotosensei 31 Mar

Sounds like you have gained quite the education

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @theswissroadtocrypto 31 Mar

thxs for the update,

94 sats \ 1 reply \ @Gerrrrt 30 Mar

I ran a Raspiblitz node for a couple of years with over 100 channels and yes, it's a lot of work. My aim was never to make a lot of sats, I was happy to make enough to cover on-chain open/close fees - and this was when we could get 1sat/vbyte (good times). It was really just a learning experience plus a spending wallet. I've simplified now, running an Umbrel with 6 medium sized channels which will hopefully cover my spending needs for a long time to come. My son runs something similar but with just one channel to me. It's a reliable setup and we're putting it to the test next week travelling in El Salvador.

There's been a lot of negativity recently about Lightning and some of it is quite fair. It can be a PITA when it breaks, there's no money in it for operators unless they're running at SCALE, and the learning curve is steep. But I love it and will continue to run it as long as there's another node to share a channel with.

I do miss my old Raspiblitz though.

32 sats \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

Good for you and if you can maintain the node, beautiful. I've done so for 6 years with no remorse.

But for 6 channels I wouldn't run an entire node. Electrum can do quite well with that.

About the negativity, I'm not in. I continue to use LN everyday, some days even 4 or 5 times, and will continue for ever. I'm 100% positive on LN. I just understand what is my level right now, and don't want to waste resources.

64 sats \ 2 replies \ @0xIlmari 30 Mar

Bitcoin is evolving towards a model similar to the Internet.

The backbone of the Internet is operated by large corporations that connect to each other. Actual people are leaves of the network, barely operating a LAN attached to their ISP.

Similarly, the biggest pipelines on Lightning will be businesses like ACINQ that will provide a lot of liquidity, can hire a workforce to maintain the service 24/7 but also expect a profit. The leaves of the network will be plebs, Uncle Jims and small businesses running private, nonrouting nodes that have one or two channels.

122 sats \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

That doesn't need to be a bad plan per se. Internet is very decentralized and it is very hard to censorship. Even if one big actor like ACINQ gets bad, there are always going to be alternatives.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 30 Mar

Uncle Jims and small businesses running private, nonrouting nodes that have one or two channels.

As a small "uncle Jim" here I wrote a guide about that scenario. https://darthcoin.substack.com/p/bitcoin-private-banks-over-lightning

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @Malachi17 30 Mar

Glaring reason for not doing what you suggest: It isn't the bank which has almost all those weaknesses and then some.

Many people are fixated on the wealth generation aspect of bitcoin rather than the "It ain't the bank" angle. Bitcoin was not necessarily created in the interests of wealth generation alone.

42 sats \ 1 reply \ @expatriotic 30 Mar

This is why I use Zeus embedded node.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

Beautiful.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @globalmerchant 31 Mar

Thank you both @javier and @Darthcoin for this important discussion.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 31 Mar

I'm here to serve.

70 sats \ 5 replies \ @doofus 30 Mar

I think lightning is too complicated a solution.

143 sats \ 1 reply \ @javier OP 30 Mar

Only for node operators. Normal people should use a LN wallet which are pretty easy and simple.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nikotsla 30 Mar

This.

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @DarthCoin 30 Mar

No, is not. Only people lack of understanding. Javier understood this aspect, but couldn't go further. Not because of lack of understanding (he seems to be a knowledgeable user) but about limitations that he cannot control:

bad internet connection
lack of better capital / liquidity
better resources / hardware

Once he understood these limitations, pulling the plug of that node was the best option. It was the best option because:

running a bad public node it affects ALL network participants
it could cause him more loses if will continue like that

RUNNING A PUBLIC ROUTING NODE IS A SERIOUS BUSINESS THAT VERY FEW UNDERSTAND IT NOWADAYS.

111 sats \ 1 reply \ @javier OP 30 Mar

I am very technical. I was a dev, and can maintain a linux server no problem whatsoever. My main problem was that I had to use a crappy connection in a crappy situation and didn't want to put much resources into it. Plus I don't need it, I really don't have the economic incentive, only some personal/political incentives that are not useful anymore, because the network is already perfectly stablished.

And yes, running a bad node is bad for everyone, specially for those you are connected to.

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @nikotsla 30 Mar

the network is already perfectly stablished

https://m.stacker.news/24118

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @muteness11 30 Mar

much appreciated for sharing your experience.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

I'm here to serve!

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @quark 30 Mar

there is a reason why largest LN nodes are on big cloud servers with fast and reliable connection and storage. I would not give up on keeping your own nodes, but in a cloud server instead, you may have a better experience then. Don't be so paranoid as you said. But it is ok, the new mobile phone apps like Zeus or Blixt seem good.

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

I've heard good reviews about Voltage. I'm thinking about it, but not for the moment. The main problem I see is that they don't offer the option of CLIGHTNING with CLBOSS, which is the one I like and prefer most.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @nikotsla 30 Mar

LN old days... remember lightning torch? ;)

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

Yep, those wonderful days... never to come back, but LN is better now.

1044 sats \ 1 reply \ @btcschellingpnt 31 Mar

Thanks for sharing!

Very similar to my journey but without the liquidity levels since I came to bitcoin much later on. Ran a node since late 2018 and was once in the top-100 .. and like you, got burned by the hot-mess that is LND.

I'm about to fire up a new node and it will be on CLN, but my focus is now quite different.

In the beginning (like you I suspect), I was keen to support the network, add some liquidity, and learn and help others learn. My node quickly became a routing node. I was involved in starting Ring-of-Fire, which like PlebNet which followed it, helped accelerate liquidity, connections and education for plebs learning about lightning.

Now, as Darth identifies, we've got some large exceptionally liquid and well connected nodes, and we've also got LSPs, both types need to be economically viable to survive - and we want them to do that. All I want to do is send and receive LN payments privately and I specifically do NOT want to route, so my thinking is:

Small node for private use 2-4 channels in total 2-10m sats/channel 1-2 channels with frens who run small reliable private nodes 1-2 channels with larger well-connected nodes Reliable redundant infrastructure Clearnet with a public proxy

I expect to continue to use Zeus as the mobile front-end to my own node - it's been great in the past - even on Tor .. which appears to be increasingly unreliable/attacked. Hoping that I'll be able to keep those channels open for years now. Small functional self-sovereign plebnode

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 31 Mar

got burned by the hot-mess that is LND

Yep, I don't understand why that program is so popular, it's a mess, or at least it was some years ago. I hope it is now better.

I'm about to fire up a new node and it will be on CLN

Good idea, but take into consideration it is more technical, and even if it is more stable than LND, the plugins thing is a mess. Also there are less developers.

helped accelerate liquidity, connections and education for plebs learning about lightning

That's beautiful! I did the same and helped some guys in Telegram to do that. But most of them stopped running a node, too low liquidity and very difficult to maintain over time.

Small node for private use

Think about it. Why? I have right now Electrum with 5 channels and it is doing extraordinary well, no problem whatsover, and even it has the option of doing submarine swaps and auto balance. What more do you need?

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @falsejaguar 31 Mar

That's right bro. I messed around with just a small amount which I messed up and lost in a similar fashion. I can imagine it only making sense if Bitcoin 10xs while normal hardware comes down as well, and even then needs more time for more automated solutions at that point I will try again but that's probably five years or more away

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @m00ninite 30 Mar

I think we're moving into the age of "only tech-literate enthusiasts will run this".

I was in the raspiblitz telegram through the last bull market and was astounded by how many people rolled through with very basic Linux-related issues with their nodes. I've had to bail quite a few people out of some trouble.

To begin with, I found it incredibly irresponsible for influencers and plebs alike to encourage noobs to run their own LN node. It's far too technical and way too many things can go wrong if you aren't already savvy in running a Linux server.

It's much better this way. Average plebs can use their easy mobile wallets, leave running the lightning infrastructure to the guys that already know how to run infrastructure.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

Agree, but that wasn't my problem. I was a dev and very technical, and I know LN very well from the inside out.

But yeah, a very serious problem about this is the oversale of LN nodes. They sell freedom and sovereign just by having a LN node but I don't believe that for a moment, at least now. Just using Bitcoin is enough to be sovereign, no need to go technical and have a computer 24/7 running for just making some payments from now to then.

But, of course, if you a merchant runing your own node is good if the number of tx is high enough to deserve it. That should be the real intended use of nodes.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @m00ninite 31 Mar

I'm even more skeptical about merchants running their own nodes. They have enough to worry about, let alone making sure their payment system is safe, secure, backed up, built in a redundant way to reduce downtime.

I think there's going to be a lot of middleware-type companies that handle this for merchants, like visa and mastercard do. That is, of course, if we land on LN as the "final" solution for payments.

Frankly it's probably going to be a custodial situation for most merchants unless we can do away with the need for an immaculate server. Self-custody is pointless when the rug risk of your server crashing is higher than the rug risk of your custodian running off.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 31 Mar

Right, I do agree. That's why I said if the number of tx is high enough to deserve it. For example, imagine you are Bitrefill, then you are very interested in running you own node because you have a very high traffic. But Imagine you are just a small merchant selling tomatoes. Would you run your own server? No, you just will use a mobile wallet like Phoenix or Breez or even Zeus. And note that those mobile wallet are still fully under your control even if they connect to an LSP like ACINQ.

1 sat \ 3 replies \ @Coinsreporter 30 Mar

IMO, it's better to stay away from nodes thing. I consider myself a normie.

60 sats \ 2 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

I learnt a lot, and, to be honest, I think I contributed a lot in the beginning, when this was an incipient technology with my 8 BTC liquidity. At some point I was on top 100 of nodes. Not anymore, of course. But that means LN is being taken care of by the people who really needs it.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @DiedOnTitan 30 Mar

Thanks for being a strong early adopter and supporter of the network. What would have to change to get you to run an LN node again?

76 sats \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

Sincerely, I don't think I'm going to run a node again unless something very bad happens to the network and more nodes are needed urgently.

Another good reason would be to simplify and make more reliable the process of maintaining a node, but we are probably years ahead of this.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @KLT 14 Apr

Gave this thread a solid read and after a few months of debating whether to keep my node or not, I just closed my down as well when fees got to 15sats/vb and sending the funds to cold storage. Feeling pretty solid about this.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @orange_crush 31 Mar

Thank you for your write-up. This is the truth of lightning: a convenience network subsidized by node operators.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @theswissroadtocrypto 31 Mar

thanks for the update

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture 30 Mar

First off thanks for joining us! This is amazing information about usage and pros and cons. I really appreciate it and will consider it in my adoption!

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

Yep. If you have any question don't hesitate to ask.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @PopeNobody 31 Mar freebie

That is a map of a world of pain. I never think about liquidity or connections or running complex software to avoid insane fees, and I feel for those who do. Every single transaction, for me, costs less than a penny. I have never lost a dime to bugs. I did lose some money in 2017 because I gave the guy my BTC address when I was buying BTC, and it was going to an exchange address to boot ... but that was purely my mistake.

What I don't understand is, why are people paying so much more, to get less, and going through so much pain? It doesn't have to be like that. There are plenty of chains that just work.

But to each his own.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @Bell_curve 30 Mar

Did you use liquid to rebalance your nodes?

31 sats \ 3 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar

No, CLBOSS does an absolutely fantastic job with that. All my channels got rebalanced very fast. https://github.com/ZmnSCPxj/clboss

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Bell_curve 30 Mar

Automatic boltz exchange swaps

Nice tool

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @m00ninite 30 Mar

I would love if some of these tools supported automated liquid swaps. Would make pleb nodes remarkably more sat-efficient.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @javier OP 30 Mar freebie

Yes, it uses the boltz api to do so when fees are low. It also waits for fees being low to do all things onchain, including opening or closing channels.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 30 Mar

liquid is trash It is meant to be used by ordinals people...

https://m.stacker.news/24065

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 30 Mar

https://blockstream.com/liquid

https://liquid.net/

https://blog.boltz.exchange/p/launching-liquid-swaps-unfairly-cheap

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Darthcoin_Cash 30 Mar outlawed

stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.