It seems undeniable that running a lightning node can be defined as operating an unlicensed money transmitter based on this indictment.
The only issue is whether the government chooses to pursue this attack.
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It seems undeniable that running a lightning node can be defined as operating an unlicensed money transmitter based on this indictment.
The only issue is whether the government chooses to pursue this attack.
I've been thinking the same thing. I haven't thought it all through yet but there is strength in numbers. If they do attempt this path it is important to remember other examples of peaceful disobedience that have worked before.
The first one that comes to mind is home schooling. It was once illegal in most US states but so many parents did it that the state slowly "legalized it".
The US government tends to follow this pattern. They did it with bittorrent and Covid. They make examples to scare the public into compliance. They don't tend to try to enforce things that are impossible to enforce at scale. They depend on compliance and self policing. Translation. Stay strong. Live as free as you can. Consider the tradeoffs and don't become a target. There is strength in numbers. We need to make it hard and painful for them to come for us.
There's a hell of a lot of upside in this advice. Or maybe even more nuanced: be very low-down on the list of targets. In practice that's worth a lot. Kind of the spirit behind my question here.
Great question
I agree no need to be a martyr here. We have strength in numbers. Run nodes open channels buck the system!
Yes. There are examples. Current state marijuana laws contravene Federal law and everyone ignores it. They would really have a tough time trying to track lightning nodes worldwide. They would need to print lots more fiat for the effort.
Yep, that's a great example. I'm kinda surprised at how fast things are changing on marijuana. Its also a great example of state nullification. Its one of the more hopeful examples of federal over-reach push back.
Another reason why I run a node and pay out the wazoo for fees. A simple and easy way to buck the system. Not everything is about profit and how much money can I make on this.
This is most certainly the truth and the effect would be worse than things are now which are getting worse anyway...
False, this is the same mistake people are making here... if it doesn't survive a court challenge its not law.
The state can make up whatever charges it wants, citing whatever law they want... it means nothing until a court says it does.
OK siggy, sell all your sats and buy compliance tokens, it's over man.
https://m.stacker.news/28132
I'm going to keep running my node. Don't shoot the messenger. This case has to be challenged.
I sincerely don't give a shit about the case. For me is a clear sting operation from day one.
Check this #518276
Please explain more your second sentence.
Not sure if you studied enough the Silk Road case. This is similar to it.
Gov agencies were using Ross from the beginning, and now that's why they put him in jail for life so he cannot talk.
Gov agencies create "a problem", then wait for the reaction/evolving etc, then come up with a "solution".
I am suspicious that samourai team was involved from day one in this operation, helping gov agencies for years to accumulate data, create tools and also create the false impression of "privacy". They are capable to do that and also the meanings.
Now, I do not have enough information about the samourai guys being involved, but even if they weren't involved, they could be used as patsies. We do not have enough information but is possible.
This whole case stinks...
The goal is to hit hard in Bitcoin community. They want Bitcoin to be a "compliant token" run by ETFs.
Check this: https://fxtwitter.com/Thebitcoinway_/status/1783409225697317000
I believe that this is correct. Maybe the names and faces are incorrect but THE GOOD GUYS AND THE BAD GUYS ARE THE SAME GUYS in the Hegelian Dialectic.
In my case I have to act with action that I think is correct and avoid contact or action with players who seek to trap via machinations. You can do a little over think. Or I can. We should do good work that is helpful and not harmful. Bitcoin is good work. Lightning is good work. Privacy is good work. Evil is the work of central planners.
It's the big LSPs that need to be worried. They are easy targets. The government is doing a great job of keeping bitcoin/lightning decentralized.
Or splitting it (the bearish case).
The silver lining
You are worried / scared too much. Is exactly what they want... the fear of the people. They feed from it.
I'm not changing my behavior at all. It's good to face your attackers with clear eyes.
Is there a logical argument that differentiates a lightning network node from a World of Warcraft or Fortnite server? Does "unlicensed money transmitter" just mean anything we dislike?
There are more gamers that bitcoines... if they attack the gamers, they lose more votes... it's their game, "how we get votes?". We are a target because they think we are an easy one, they have no idea, like always.
Smaller lightning nodes might thrive in a scenario where the state clamps down on larger entities. I’m hopeful that dual funding, splicing and e-cash integrations improve the network even in wartime.
Authoritarian pressure from the looters may result in a more distributed network of pleb node runners that finally get “yield” for supporting the lightning network.
Yes, that would improve decentralization and might be healthy for the network. Still, I hope we all don't start taking sides and deeming certain players or use cases bad. For example, LN advocates expressing happiness that Samourai gets attacked because they don't like conjoins. Or small nodes attacking rich LSPs. We're all under attack unjustly. If they don't knock on your door today, it might be next week.
Okay, so let me get this straight: Bitcoin is NOT money (by their standards) but operating Bitcoin-transmitting software is "unlicensed money transmitting"?
This hung me up for a long time. Coincidentally, I took a CLE course 2 days ago. It is well settled law in the US that for money transfer services, transferring anything of value qualifies, and specifically "cryptocurrency".
Incidentally, that also means that DoJ (and therefore the US gov't) admits that Bitcoin has value.
Terrible take, it's great for the Lightning Network...
So wait. This is good news? I feel better now.
Seriously, I do agree with a lot of what you wrote. With #1, though, I think there is a high likelihood that we will see guilty pleas very soon. That's how it works in the federal system. Either one defendant will roll on the other, or some Russian oligarch will take a hit. Either way, plea bargains almost always involve guilty pleas to all charges.
They admitted guilt to money laundering on Twitter effectively, but that's a different charge from money transmission which is the presumed attack vector for LN
You're right in that psyops have meaning, this foreshadows something... an L for the devs can still be a L for the deep state and a W everyone else
Ironically the samurai guys are always talking negatively about lightning.
This is sad.
The network keeps running however, there is at least one case in Canada when LN node was considered as money transmitter.
Any more info / links on this?
Found it. Nodeless case. May be not exactly LN router but very close to it.
https://satellite.earth/thread/faeba6839d204b98439fae3bb043ae2d3af2190013dee058a9af2c8b8689cff6
Not even remotely close, he was running a custodial API service
also what is with everyone's lack of understanding that a charge/investigation is not the same as a court ruling? there's no case law re: Lightning anywhere
I have that understanding.
But in places where I am from, getting into custody means that their job is done for 99%.
And here I am pretty ready to expect very adversarial scenario.
Ignoring the law for a moment... as a business you should not want custody just because we're dealing with hot wallets... customer funds WILL be stolen or otherwise lost because software isn't perfect. WHEN (not if) that happens, it could end your business or worse, your reputation.
Custodial is in the end, and the only business in it is regulatory arbitrage based on faulty risk assumptions.
Everything about the service they were running was bad, he's probably lucky he was spooked off of it before something really bad happened.
The crackdown is being done this way to scare normal people away from Bitcoin. Make it seem illegal to use Bitcoin and normal people won’t want to be associated with it.
I agree, but why? Is it just a coincidence that this happens months after BlackRock, run by Larry Fink, who is incredibly well connected to the government, gets their spot ETF? It seems like a blatant attempt to make sure bitcoin is controlled and run by Wall Street.
There is no way this can be a coincidence. If they can get everyone onto KYC exchanges and wallets that are subject to government regulations they can control Bitcoin and eliminate the threat to fiat currency.
I can even see them going so far as to issue “paper Bitcoin” not actually backed by anything.
It won’t work but they will try.
Remember: not your 🔑s, not your 🧀
What I'm waiting for is to hear Saylor or Larry Fink address this issue.
Some LN service providers start building KYC features, for example UMA fucking around with LNURL and pressure with money some providers to implement their "clean LN", if I had to bet... they know something ahead of the rest.
This is an attack, that is clear, but bitcoin will survive.
My "friends" wholesale "customers" are scared, they do not want to pay in Bitcoin at this time, this is a reality, they read the news, true or not, as usual for a while this new development will, once again stop my B2B transactions.
Yes I'm all for NOT using fiat of any kind, but that is not realistic right now, at best some, repeat some (a very few) are still moving Tether back and forth on AQUA to quickly transfer to BTC and do some small (under severn hundred dollars USD comparison lightning transactions, but they're scared.
And of course I told them a while back to use wallet of satoshi "it's easy" now it's no longer supported in USA, which "they" immediately feel is a red flag, they view it as not safe.
Merchants as usual we adapt in seconds, but it is frustrating and a waste of time to spend time discussing with them who is next, what will the government do next ?
Yes, I know "nothing will stop Bitcoin", but running and import, export, wholesale business is full time in an extremely competitive World, with fiat around the World taking a beating, which is used to compare for products versus the USD as a step one barometer. Second is in SATS, but seems like no matter who will be the next President, absolutely everyone seems to be against and are trying everything possible to interfere.
Actually I'm a positive, active person, my gut feeling is to just increase my dealings OUTSIDE of the USA. Forget about using Bitcoin in the USA for now.
Some, repeat some Countries will still use Bitcoin in some B2B transactions, I'm not talking about buying a cup of coffee (B2C).
As an example for the next fe days I am buying and selling goods NOT just what is on my main website, but from Merchants in Asia, Eastern and Western Europe, Africa.
Yes some a very, very, very little Lightning, but and this is the sad, frustrating main part........ My B2B customers are afraid of their local governments stop allowing BTC in anyway.
Not smiling right now
In my sincere opinion, I think this is a good thing for LN.
Now all those obsessed coinjoiners will look to the LN with other eyes.
Finally they will see the LIGHT...ning.
https://y.yarn.co/5c3741fb-d1d1-47a2-910b-61be16f350da_text.gif
If you centralize or custody, in any way, they will come for you or try to intimidate you. But peer-to-peer, can they? Will they?
The same would be centralized encrypted email servers like proton mail and even running your of SMTP server
Maybe the government doesnt realize how many nodes are out there?
Hmmm could be, no wonder Amboss was pushing their OFAC compliant thingy and UMA by the lightspark guys also offering a "corporate friendly" LN, guess the rest of us criminals will just need to hang out on Tor
We really can't have nice things can we?
Maybe it is a good strategy to tell on every corner that the service is compliant. I think it is time to stop paying attention to that.
Great way to identify bad actors... as I always said.. Fuck UMA.
No Lightning money laundering
This is the then they fight us part! Hopefully we can keep the building going in creative ways and maybe add some legal defense?
I agree.
The same would be for centralized/federated email encrypted servers like proton mail. And even running your own SMTP server.
That's a fake attempt to the FOSS.
Apparently control over the funds is not necessary to be deemed a money transmitter.
view on twitter.comhttps://m.stacker.news/28438
From the Grasping At Straws Department, there is the argument that bitcoin never "moves". What is called a transfer is simply reassigning keys to identifiable bitcoin in the blockchain. FYI- judges really hate these types of arguments.
How about unannounced lightning nodes and channels?