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It's nice to see this articulated so well from Mike Brock. All ideologies are perched on a hill with slippery sides and libertarianism is no different. I definitely tend to fit into a libertarian category better than any other, but I don't love categories, because they tend to be too broadly prescriptive and filled with a bunch of unflattering ideas and expressions that I don't want to associate with.
In other words, the world of Hoppe, can easily devolve into a kind of neo-fuedalism or even outright fascism, without ever having to mechanically violate the non-agression principle. In a world where the right to exclude other’s from one’s property is seen as absolute and inviolable, and where no countervailing forces or institutions can check the power of the economically dominant, you essentially just have a might-makes-right society who can largely impose their will with impunity. The libertarians believe lethal force is justified in defense of property, and that in such a society, security is best provided by private contract, and someone with the most security is going to be exceptionally difficult to control or hold accountable. Through this backdoor, the libertarian idea when completely uncontained against some claim on the common good, slides effortlessly into the fascist tendency. It is therefore an unstable idea.
It’s worth mentioning that classical liberals such as John Locke, John Stuart Mill and Thomas Jefferson, absolutely believed in a concept of the common good. In fact, Jefferson’s conception of it, shows up in the US Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution itself — it specifically calls upon government to “promote the general welfare” and to “secure the blessings of liberty” for all citizens; classical liberals absolutely believed in a conception of the common good, and even believed in government, and believed that government should have a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence — in service of maintaining rule-of-law so disputes could be settled without violence. Locke’s liberal social contract theory, from which Jefferson was heavily influenced, is very much the intellectual basis for the American constitutional order.
What’s been a particularly bizarre twist for me, is coming face to face with this ideological disposition popping up in Bitcoin. In fact, there’s a popular strain of thought that shows up in among people who promote Bitcoin as a technology, that Bitcoin actually proves that Austrian economics is true. And by extension, methodological individualism, and that this has intractable implications for the future of how society will be organized. That, bitcoin has achieved the dream of Rothbard’s propertarian vision, by manifesting inviolable property rights, which can be the basis for a complete reformation of culture and society around a purely market-driven system, that lessons or eliminates the need for government, taxation, the welfare state, and will finally unleash the market’s invisible hand upon the world to fix all that ails it — and all that ails it, is the malinvestment, cultural degeneracy, and lack of discernment that easy money and credit unleash upon the world, at the end of the barrel of the government’s gun. That, market failures, externalities, liquidity traps, thrift paradoxes, and all the things that literally every practicing macroeconomist thinks about — are all just propaganda for “fiat”, communism or some shadowy totalizing ideology being pursued by a bunch of unaccountable elites.
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Very good article that hits home for me.
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How? This sounds like a very poor refutation of libertarian and anarco capitalist principles. Am I missing something?
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It’s not a refutation. It’s written by a libertarian.
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This is the problem with labels as you said in your OP. We all have ideas in our heads about what a label is or isn't. This reads as a refutation to me. If he uses the libertarian label that's fine. I'm not the arbitrator of that. It just doesn't align with what I think a libertarian is. I don't align with what I think a libertarian is but I think I am much closer than this guy.
Obviously I'm not saying that's a bad thing in and of itself. I have many friends that I love and respect that do not see the world like I do And I don't agree with many libertarians but his post actually seems to miss the point of many of ideals of libertarians and freedom loving people. It seems to connect hatred with these ideals in a way that I cannot for the life of me find. I see hate in all political stripes. All of them that I'm aware of. It comes from the heart. It comes from culture and any system can be warped into a tool for your own bigotry. This include libertarianism of all stripes, conservatism, liberalism, progressivism, fascism, and communism.
Its a big clue to me that he never defines fascism but by inference it seems to be all about morality and hate. IMO morality infects all political systems. I say infect because it is most often used to justify violence and destruction.
Wikipedia actually surprised me with its definition of fascism.
authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
This is about as anti-libertarian as you can get. I do not question that people can move from libertarianism to fascism but it is hardly a pipeline. He really never even makes that point with examples. I have heard others do a far better job of that.
OK, I need to drop this though. I'm feeling like I have Jordan vibes here.
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Sure he is
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I respect your opinion, so I read it again this morning. I think it's worth talking about, since I personally haven't wrestled with some of these issues for years. For me, I believe the author goes too far in conclusion with language like this:
The libertarian-to-fascist pipeline is revealed, and its desire to deny the common good seen for what it is, a project focused on the maximization of ones own ego and values to the exclusion of others. It is fundamentally always asking itself the question: who can I exclude?
I certainly can see why you would assume this guy isn't a libertarian. I would really like @k00b, @Undisciplined, and @grayruby's take.
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275 sats \ 1 reply \ @grayruby 16 Jun
I think the author could have created an interesting argument comparing classic liberalism and libertarianism and the role of some sort of "social good" but the implication of veering towards fascism is just silly. If you own a farm and I own a farm across the road and you want to protect your farm with 100 armed guards and I protect mine with 10 you are not impairing my individual interest by having 10x the might unless you are using your guards to attack my farm or threatening people who wish to patronize it.
If the argument is more about human nature and the fact that imbalances in might will always devolve into at very least intimidation if not aggression then it probably should have been framed that way.
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Well said.
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I quit reading it, because stuff like what you've excerpted comes up frequently. I've never found the cases to be difficult to refute at all and I'm not that interested in refuting people who argue disingenuously.
Smearing people who categorically reject initiating aggression for political purposes as "fascistic" is as radical of a misunderstanding of both libertarianism and fascism as one could make.
If someone misunderstands what libertarianism is that badly, then I agree with @kepford that whatever they call themselves they are not a libertarian.
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I stopped reading it about three times. I didn't mention the lack of definition of racism but that's a red flag as well. If I were not familiar with fascism from his writing I'd assume fascisms key attributes would all be related to race and sex. When your read the current popular definition of fascism it is far away from libertarian ideas he counters in this post. The use of the term is the biggest mistake in this post
It is fair to say the libertarian ideas do not fix human hate. That they are not an answer for the ills of discrimination. I haven't heard an argument that they are. What I have heard is that decentralized society would lead to more diversity and less violence.
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Stupid mobile autocomplete. Racism should have been fascism.
I have seen arguments that libertarian societies might alleviate racial tensions, to a degree, but we aren't generally utopian and wouldn't argue that ugly human traits will just disappear.
I took him at his word here, that he was making the usual definitions of things a little squishy to make a point, and that he was trying to reveal something about some libertarians that he disagrees with:
So I want to get ahead of this now: I am actually trying to push on the definitions of what libertarianism and fascism are here a little bit. And I think it’s necessary, because I think we might need some better categories in order to make sense of some of the apparent contradictions we see.
I also believed what he said the paragraph before, that he isn't describing libertarians as fascistic generically, and instead attempting to reveal that some libertarians are more motivated by taking away positive rights from people they don't like, and gaining new non-violent but anti-social powers, than they are interested in securing negative rights for us all:
And I want to disabuse you of some potential worries up-front, and clarify that I am not saying that if you are a libertarian that you are fascist, or that you are on your way to becoming a fascist.
It's been a long time since I've spent time in these political boundary setting exercises. (I find them exhausting and myself ineffective at moving political boundaries.) I don't think he's arguing in bad faith even if I'd agree he's being somewhat inconsiderate to make a point. I do think some libertarians are libertarians for anti-social reasons and are mostly looking to protect their anti-sociality. It's their right to be anti-social, or fascistic, non-violently, but I wouldn't mind partitioning them out of my political tribe wherever they are.
I find myself wanting libertarianism to be concerned with the common good indirectly at the very least. I think the only thing he attacked in this article was an attitude that some libertarian bitcoiners have.
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Thanks @k00b. I see what you are saying. I believe your would have written a better article FWIW. I don't disagree with your points here. I don't think these are unique to libertarians. People of all political stripes bring their morality to politics and claim they are Democratic or conservative for the greater good when that isn't true.
To me politics is about figuring out how to resolve conflict first and if your system requires everyone to be nice it is doomed to fail. Hoppe is trying to solve for a very real issue. Maybe his heart is filled with hate. But the point remains, if you have groups of people at moral odds I believe it is better to separate peacefully and try to win people over voluntary vs by force. He seems to gloss over that.
Thanks for your reply.
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I don't think these are unique to libertarians.
Agreed. Political labels are camouflage as much as they are jerseys our teammates wear.
But the point remains, if you have groups of people at moral odds I believe it is better to separate peacefully and try to win people over voluntary vs by force.
100%
He seems to gloss over that.
I like to read and listen to people accepting they'll gloss over nearly everything, whether I agree with them or not, but I might just be exhausted to the point of having low standards. These days, I find myself mostly wanting to hunt for their point with them, friend or well-intended foe.
No true Scotsman is a disappointing response to get from you.
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I just find it surprising after reading his post.
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Here is why I find it surprising to hear he's a libertarian. The fact that people say they are libertarian and do not align on these topics is one reason I don't call myself one any more.
  • Seems to embrace positive rights and completely misunderstand negative rights
  • Seems to reject the none aggression principle
  • Seems to reject the abolition of the monopoly on violence by the state
  • Seems to confuse moral beliefs with political systems
  • Seems to not understand the fundamental importance of property rights
  • Seems to not understand the importance of the right of freedom of association
I could speculate on the type of libertarian he is but that's not fair. I will stick to the context of the article.
I don't call myself a libertarian or anarchist any more because I don't think I align with enough of the principles myself. So if it makes you feel any better I'm not a true Scotsman either. My issues with this aren't that he is or isn't a libertarian. Its that I find his arguments illogical and frankly unoriginal. This sounds like progressive arguments I've heard for many years from people that do not really even understand the principles of the ideology.
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I appreciate your elaboration. I have a plane to catch and can't engage with this as it merits, but a couple things. Caveat is that I only read this once.
Seems to reject the none aggression principle
My sense wasn't that he rejected it; and in fact, that he embraced it. What he rejected was the idea that the NAP is anything close to sufficient to building society around at scale. (See below wrt property rights.)
Seems to reject the abolition of the monopoly on violence by the state
I could read this two ways: he rejects the assertion that there should be no monopoly on violence (e.g., anyone should be able to do violence, and suffer the consequences of however the world reacts), or else he rejects the assertion that nobody, including the state, should be able to do violence. My sense is that he does the latter as a matter of pragmatism -- you can't have 100k + humans living together without coercion being applied. The question is who applies it and what are the consequences of that.
Seems to not understand the fundamental importance of property rights
I got nothing like this from the article; although if you re-state as: he rejects the idea that property rights alone form a coherent political methodology, then I would agree, he does that. And I also do that, but that's not the issue under discussion I guess.
Seems to embrace positive rights and completely misunderstand negative rights
I'd be interested to know what misunderstanding you're referring to.
Note that I have no dog in this fight other than not being Libertarian myself, for reasons you can probably infer from this and from everything I've ever said on SN. But I would like to understand what's so triggering about this post, since when I read it it all seems pretty uncontroversial.
"[under private defense] you essentially just have a might-makes-right society who can largely impose their will with impunity [...therefore government monopoly on violence is better]"
This is a logical fallacy. If one assumes that economically dominant players will form a threat to life, liberty, and property via might making right, then it would extend that a larger organization would be able to do so in a far more dangerous way, as governments today are orders of magnitude more dominant economically than the wealthiest individuals, and the percent of GDP that governments spend has been steadily climbing -- 36% in the US now.
If one imagines that this monopolize violence entity is able to capture the interests of some imagined common party, this is a failure to understand the nature of complex systems i.e. non-linear-dynamical systems. This goes beyond politics into pure math where it is clear that complex systems cannot be governed top down.
It is flawed to assert that governmental checks and balances are inferior to those which would exist among powerful individuals, and it is fairly obvious that if you have 10,000 powerful players, each one is going to be a lot more hesitant to "start shit."
Will assassinations become more prominent? Probably, but no Government will be able to protect you from being assassinated anyway. Just try to not be like me, constantly talking shit on the internet and no one will come after you, or just do so with proper opsec.
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I suspect it will be at the scale of cities that we will see terms and conditions that provide a structure resembling something along the lines of what is considered governance today.
There are also likely to be geographically agnostic insurance services e.g. revenge killing as a subscription service, or something like that -- the insurer will be incentivized to keep you alive. Insurance companies will be extremely powerful.
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This really sounds a lot like the classic describe the status quo when saying why your alternative wouldn't work.
His description of Jim crow south is pretty flawed as well. The state enforced these rules. Of course the people held them but not all. Enough did to keep these laws in place. Those that went against them paid a social price as well as a legal price. Now we have to remember that slavery and these laws clearly violate the constitution. Yet they persisted. Its almost like culture is the real battlefront. If you live in a racist culture the state will be racist. Really bad arguments to me.
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Well the culture is eventually downstream of the technology. The industrial revolution guaranteed slavery would come to an end.
As I recently argued, it is clear that increasing technological advancement will have a tendency to reduce war, leaving fiat vs bitcoin impact aside. https://heaviside.substack.com/p/advancing-technology-disincentivizes
It would seem that "good" behavior is correlated to broad technological advancement and material wealth.
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141 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford 16 Jun
Talk about a straw man
It is often said by negative rights theorists that “a right is something you can do alone on a deserted island”. But if that’s what’s being used to define what a right is, and the corollary to that, is that’s what defines the contours of what freedom is, then I think it’s pretty strange that people’s dreams of absolute freedom don’t typically entail being stranded on an island in the middle of the ocean.
The logical problem with positive rights is that if my right requires me to violate your rights we have a broken theory. And correct me if I'm wrong but negative rights predates libertarianism and today is still held by some conservatives.
Not sure who has very said the NAP is the single ethical principal to base a society upon either. But I think its pretty good. I guess I could say this guy is OK committing violence against others that haven't committed violence themselves?
From where I sit the modern D/R parties are pretty fascist to me. Much more than any libertarian thinkers. This article was full of platitude but lack coherent arguments.
A much better argument is one where you are honest about the flaws in all systems and acknowledge that no system will be just and humane without people that value those principles. This guy seems to be saying that these libertarian ideals could lead to a world that looks a lot like the one we live in now.
Am I missing something? This article sounds like drivel to me. I don't call myself a libertarian any more for some of the same reasons @k00b describes but I do think those ideas are very American and better than those of the right and left political parties.
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No, you're not missing anything. It's drivel.
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It's become increasingly clear to me that the customary political dominance of certain parts of the maxi narrative is nearing its end. I take this as a good sign. The "pure" ideologies of whatever stripe -- Libertarianism not excepted -- can't survive contact with the real world without losing their purity. The religious faithful then decry the leader[s], whoever it is or whoever they are, as failing the purity test, however that manifests. It's a cycle as old as time.
But what is really being revealed is that the world is fucking complicated. You might engineer a brief stability in a small collective, or in a somewhat larger collective, if you can make certain assumptions about shared context.
But at scale, in real life? Nope.
Btc has reached -- or is shortly to reach -- the point where it has to function in a complicated reality, serving various ends; or else die. Unlike many, I hold the prospect of it dying [1] to still be substantial. If it doesn't die, a bunch of people, including many around here, are going to be disabused about the nature of complex systems before all is done.
[1] dying in this case doesn't mean zero people running nodes, it means being largely irrelevant in the wider schemes of society, with the corresponding cratering in price that comes with that.
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the customary political dominance of certain parts of the maxi narrative is nearing its end. I take this as a good sign.
WRONG -- bitcoin is transitioning into Eternal September -- just because there are a lot of you retarded normies, doesn't mean you can do anything to change reality. It is actually you commies who haven't learned who bitcoin is going to crush your ideologies... you are very very confused about things -- bitcoin's impact on the world today is rather minute, you have seen less than 1% of how the world will reshape itself now that bitcoin exists.
You rely on metaphors because you have trouble contending with reality, the same sorts of metaphors you use to make yourself feel ok in being complicit in crimes against humanity. Luckily, bitcoin is hard code and raw thermodynamics/physics, not subject to your "feelings" and how you "rationalize" about the nature of things.
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In this conception, economic domination, even in extreme forms is justifiable and even argued to be perfectly libertarian, as long as all exchanges leading to that end state occurred through “voluntary” exchange. But it’s important to note that “voluntary” is doing a lot of work here, and implies that everything that’s voluntary is inherently just, because according to the negative rights conceptions the lack of coercion into something is the only concept of oppression.
I suppose I wasn’t coerced into signing away my privacy rights in order to get a Gmail account, update my mobile or desktop os, etc…
That, bitcoin has achieved the dream of Rothbard’s propertarian vision, by manifesting inviolable property rights, which can be the basis for a complete reformation of culture and society around a purely market-driven system, that lessons or eliminates the need for government, taxation, the welfare state, and will finally unleash the market’s invisible hand upon the world to fix all that ails it — and all that ails it, is the malinvestment, cultural degeneracy, and lack of discernment that easy money and credit unleash upon the world, at the end of the barrel of the government’s gun. That, market failures, externalities, liquidity traps, thrift paradoxes, and all the things that literally every practicing macroeconomist thinks about — are all just propaganda for “fiat”, communism or some shadowy totalizing ideology being pursued by a bunch of unaccountable elites.
A major theme I hear echoed is the idea that culture and ideology inform each other, which is what defines policy and informs technological innovation/development.
Other signs you’re dealing with the fascist impulse when you get to the extremes of these ideologies, that has emerged from the progenitor libertarian impulse is these political views are often steeped in deep cultural commentary, talking about things like cultural degeneracy, consumer decadence, talk about incentivizing value-shifts in people from a culture of quantity to one that is more preoccupied with “quality” — more artisanal goods, more “productive” investments, less “hedonistic” consumption. This is the language of virtue. Not the language of objective facts about the world. It’s even internally contradictory with an economic system that claims to be grounded in a fundamental epistemic claim about value, that it’s inherently subjective to begin with.
I wish bitcoin culture were more concerned with protective individual consumer technology/privacy rights than telling people what’s a good or worthwhile way to spend their time, energy, etc…
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Its interesting how some people will pigeon hole things too fit their own ideologies. Bitcoin was never meant to eclipse other currencies.
It just does because of how manipulated fiat is now.
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Meant? Lmao, what a retarded way to think about the nature of things. What Bitcoin was meant to do is entirely irrelevant from the real world, only that which is matters.
It sounds like you're being a little bitch by not directly stating what seems to be your premise, that with the competitive force of bitcoin, fiat monies will co-exist with bitcoin, which is really fucking stupid, not even gonna bother explaining it.
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I think all ideologies can feed into more extreme ones. I think there are corners of the internet where people can get into extreme ideologies - and it is very hard to get them back once they are gone. In the end, it is important to be sensible, open-minded, and willing to change one's line of thought as new evidence arrives.
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This is the correct take.
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Not a single thing can be taken from this article. Its a pristine fallacy from start to end.
To start, by just poking the head out of the window one can easily see that all of what this text claims libertarianism could do is all of what's happening now with socialistic democracies, the very ones that this article claims would prevent libertarianism from doing the exact same thing.
Nothing else should be said, but then there's more:
It marvels me how easily freedom-deniers lose perception of what the state is and of what it's composed of once they abstract it into some kind of semi-divine entity devoid of any human traits. Such semi-divine entity is the only one that can hold the power that to mortal humans is denied: freedom and property. But here is the breaking news: the state is composed of... *drum beats... people! The exact, very same people freedom deniers claim would be dangerous if free, are the exact same ones that should be given absolute power over anyone else. What could happen then? You are seeing it by yourself in real life right now, I hope that doesn't has to be described to anyone.
Even more?
The article postulates that fascism that would come from freedom and property must be suppressed by limiting liberty and property, which will turn people defending their freedom and property into enemies of the people and the state, just like it's happening now in socialists democracies. If the absolute, mind-breaking, self-explanatory logical absurdity of such claims don't hit you in the face like a club, nothing else can be said.
How, in the world, freedom-deniers fail to see something so basic, so simple, so explicit, escapes me.
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Really interesting thanks.
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A very good article, indeed!
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stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.
stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.