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174 sats \ 14 replies \ @siggy47 16 Jun \ parent \ on: The Libertarian-to-Fascist Pipeline libertarian
I respect your opinion, so I read it again this morning. I think it's worth talking about, since I personally haven't wrestled with some of these issues for years. For me, I believe the author goes too far in conclusion with language like this:
I certainly can see why you would assume this guy isn't a libertarian. I would really like @k00b, @Undisciplined, and @grayruby's take.
I think the author could have created an interesting argument comparing classic liberalism and libertarianism and the role of some sort of "social good" but the implication of veering towards fascism is just silly. If you own a farm and I own a farm across the road and you want to protect your farm with 100 armed guards and I protect mine with 10 you are not impairing my individual interest by having 10x the might unless you are using your guards to attack my farm or threatening people who wish to patronize it.
If the argument is more about human nature and the fact that imbalances in might will always devolve into at very least intimidation if not aggression then it probably should have been framed that way.
I quit reading it, because stuff like what you've excerpted comes up frequently. I've never found the cases to be difficult to refute at all and I'm not that interested in refuting people who argue disingenuously.
Smearing people who categorically reject initiating aggression for political purposes as "fascistic" is as radical of a misunderstanding of both libertarianism and fascism as one could make.
If someone misunderstands what libertarianism is that badly, then I agree with @kepford that whatever they call themselves they are not a libertarian.
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I stopped reading it about three times. I didn't mention the lack of definition of racism but that's a red flag as well. If I were not familiar with fascism from his writing I'd assume fascisms key attributes would all be related to race and sex. When your read the current popular definition of fascism it is far away from libertarian ideas he counters in this post. The use of the term is the biggest mistake in this post
It is fair to say the libertarian ideas do not fix human hate. That they are not an answer for the ills of discrimination. I haven't heard an argument that they are. What I have heard is that decentralized society would lead to more diversity and less violence.
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I have seen arguments that libertarian societies might alleviate racial tensions, to a degree, but we aren't generally utopian and wouldn't argue that ugly human traits will just disappear.
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"Fascism" = "Bad thing"
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I took him at his word here, that he was making the usual definitions of things a little squishy to make a point, and that he was trying to reveal something about some libertarians that he disagrees with:
So I want to get ahead of this now: I am actually trying to push on the definitions of what libertarianism and fascism are here a little bit. And I think it’s necessary, because I think we might need some better categories in order to make sense of some of the apparent contradictions we see.
I also believed what he said the paragraph before, that he isn't describing libertarians as fascistic generically, and instead attempting to reveal that some libertarians are more motivated by taking away positive rights from people they don't like, and gaining new non-violent but anti-social powers, than they are interested in securing negative rights for us all:
And I want to disabuse you of some potential worries up-front, and clarify that I am not saying that if you are a libertarian that you are fascist, or that you are on your way to becoming a fascist.
It's been a long time since I've spent time in these political boundary setting exercises. (I find them exhausting and myself ineffective at moving political boundaries.) I don't think he's arguing in bad faith even if I'd agree he's being somewhat inconsiderate to make a point. I do think some libertarians are libertarians for anti-social reasons and are mostly looking to protect their anti-sociality. It's their right to be anti-social, or fascistic, non-violently, but I wouldn't mind partitioning them out of my political tribe wherever they are.
I find myself wanting libertarianism to be concerned with the common good indirectly at the very least. I think the only thing he attacked in this article was an attitude that some libertarian bitcoiners have.
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Thanks @k00b. I see what you are saying. I believe your would have written a better article FWIW. I don't disagree with your points here. I don't think these are unique to libertarians. People of all political stripes bring their morality to politics and claim they are Democratic or conservative for the greater good when that isn't true.
To me politics is about figuring out how to resolve conflict first and if your system requires everyone to be nice it is doomed to fail. Hoppe is trying to solve for a very real issue. Maybe his heart is filled with hate. But the point remains, if you have groups of people at moral odds I believe it is better to separate peacefully and try to win people over voluntary vs by force. He seems to gloss over that.
Thanks for your reply.
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I don't think these are unique to libertarians.
Agreed. Political labels are camouflage as much as they are jerseys our teammates wear.
But the point remains, if you have groups of people at moral odds I believe it is better to separate peacefully and try to win people over voluntary vs by force.
100%
He seems to gloss over that.
I like to read and listen to people accepting they'll gloss over nearly everything, whether I agree with them or not, but I might just be exhausted to the point of having low standards. These days, I find myself mostly wanting to hunt for their point with them, friend or well-intended foe.
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