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0 sats \ 10 replies \ @RedRadish688 OP 18 Jun \ parent \ on: What are your thoughts on Bitcoin losing the Darknet bitcoin
There are different reasons why someone would want to use Bitcoin. Circumventing government restrictions and surveillance can be one of them, preventing governments from stealing from you through money printing is another one. So I don't see why not everyone on this planet can gain from using it. And yes, on-chain bitcoin together with lightning are not enough for this, but there are still enough people within bitcoin who are trying to find solutions without compromising self custody.
That's why we have additional layers. Big value movements happen on the first layer, smaller on the higher layers -> total adoption still going up. Also, I don't think the bitcoin community is fundamentally against an increase of blocksize (we had indirectly some increase even with segwit). The trade-offs are just taken much more carefully into account.
The difference is people in the Bitcoin community are also receiving a lot of criticism for making such statements, while the monero community seems quite complacent with these solutions.
What do you believe about Monero? Can it handle the current throughput of bitcoin and lightning without running into issues? Just through bigger blocks? Or which role do you think Monero will play? Will it just remain a niche currency for Dark markets?
"There are different reasons why someone would want to use Bitcoin. Circumventing government restrictions...preventing governments from stealing from you through money printing..."
AKA black markets. You're agreeing with me. That's the only value prop. If you're going to follow the rules (white market transactions require permission - includes having your money taxed and inflated by default) there is no point in using Bitcoin. It's worse to use than fiat in that case. Regulators can impose any arbitrary restrictions they want on white market Bitcoin transactions up to, and including, banning them.
"...That's why we have additional layers"
Which almost everyone uses custodially or with permission (custodial lightning and LSPs - look no further than zaps on StackerNews)
"The difference is people in the Bitcoin community are also receiving a lot of criticism for making such statements, while the monero community seems quite complacent with these solutions."
What? Show me custodial solutions being pushed by the Monero community. There isn't any.
"What do you believe about Monero?...which role do you think Monero will play?...Will it just remain a niche currency for Dark markets?"
Black markets (AKA free markets) are the only permissionless markets. Liberty has always been niche. Most people don't care and go along with surveillance and control for convenience.
I think Bitcoin could be the currency used between nations in the future, but they won't allow the same privilege for their denizens unless it comes with high restrictions (KYC, OFAC, approved-custodians, etc ). If you don't want to go along with that you'll have to cross into black markets. And you'll need reliable anonymous and private ways of transacting for that.
"Can it handle the current throughput of bitcoin and lightning without running into issues? Just through bigger blocks?"
Over time, yes (consumer tech improvements, protocol scalability upgrades, etc). Example is bulletproofs upgrade that reduced transaction size by ~80%. Monero is even more nimble in adapting than Bitcoin to these things since the community is more open to upgrades.
If it's sudden, massive, and sustained adoption, no, not without becoming centralized. But all crypto has that problem including Bitcoin/Lightning.
If Bitcoin, in it's much greater popularity and userbase, has time to figure it out, then so does Monero.
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What? Show me custodial solutions being pushed by the Monero community. There isn't any.
Also I am just seeing, didn't you push it here yourself?
#577071
Another option, you could use Monero-based ecash for places where you absolutely needed those "instant" transactions. Where finality was more important than self-custody
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I'm not claiming it is a scaling solution for Monero/Bitcoin though...that's the major difference.
I'm giving him an option if he values "instant" transactions more than self-custody (that doesn't make it scale Monero or Bitcoin. The only thing it's scaling is IOUs.)
I don't have any problem with Bitcoiners who are clear that ecash/liquid/custodial lightning/etc aren't scaling solutions for Bitcoin. Calle the creator of Cashu is a great example of someone that is very clear about this.
AKA black markets. You're agreeing with me. That's the only value prop. If you're going to follow the rules (white market transactions require permission - includes having your money taxed and inflated by default) there is no point in using Bitcoin.
I don't think protection from money printing is solely a black market thing. The reason money printing works today is because most people don't understand it is happening. If everyone was transacting with bitcoin, money printing could no longer be done in secret, it would have to be explicitly forced into the code and this way making everyone aware of it. So there is a huge benefit here in using bitcoin also in white market transaction through the immutability and clear rules guaranteed by the bitcoin blockchain.
What? Show me custodial solutions being pushed by the Monero community. There isn't any.
Not custodial solutions. Our conversation here was regarding people making ridiculous scaling statements, e.g. scaling through shitcoins on monero or scaling through ecash in bitcoin. And funnily enough someone just made again this statement below regarding monero: #578991. So it confirms my assumption, that is idea is quite prevalent in the monero community. While suggesting eCash as a scaling solution in Bitcoin comes with a lot of criticism.
Monero is even more nimble in adapting than Bitcoin to these things since the community is more open to upgrades.
Which is for good reasons. When people rely on a coin to store their wealth, you don't want to follow a mindset of "move fast and break things" and risk a hack that will make people's wealth evaporate overnight. Now I know many monero folks believe that monero is only for transacting, not for storing wealth, but that idea is in itself problematic. You need to be confident that you can store your wealth at least for a certain amount of time in that currency if you want to be able transact with it.
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"I don't think protection from money printing is solely a black market thing..."
Maybe not, but I can't think of any modern example where it isn't nor have any reason to believe that will change. And I definitely can't think of any white markets that don't place any restrictions on transactions that occur there.
Nothing forces governments to adopt Bitcoin. And if they do adopt Bitcoin nothing stops them from making their citizens use approved-custodian IOUs or place restrictions on your transactions where white markets are concerned.
"And funnily enough someone just made again this statement below regarding monero...So it confirms my assumption, that is idea is quite prevalent in the monero community. While suggesting eCash as a scaling solution in Bitcoin comes with a lot of criticism."
I assure you this is NOT a prevalent idea in the Monero community 😂
Go into any popular Monero community and merely mention custodial solutions and see what they say...
Also, were not necessarily opposed to layers. L2s don't necessarily mean lightning, L2s don't necessarily mean custodial, and ecash isn't a "layer"...there is no unilateral exit.
For every one of these guys there is ten thousand bitcoin users saying custodial lightning, Liquid, and ecash are "scaling solutions" for Bitcoin. They're not. They're just IOUs that retain none of the properties that make Bitcoin great. Can their properties potentially be useful? Yea, but it isn't "scaling Bitcoin" like many pretend
"Which is for good reasons..."
Ok, none of what you said changes the fact that Monero IS more nimble at adapting than Bitcoin...
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So you also really believe, that monero's "scaling solution" is to just use other shitcoins. I was right in assuming, that it is quite a prevalent belief in the monero community.
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