I made this because a few months before switching to the federated model whoever was running https://learn.robosats.com/stats/ stopped updating it, and I miss having these stats handy, especially when I'm arguing with monero people about whether there are any lightning-only darknet markets with significant usage. Robosats is probably the best example of that.
1511 sats \ 2 replies \ @supertestnet OP 30 Jul
Here are some notes on the problems I had to overcome while making it.
Sourcing the data
My initial source for data was the aforementioned stats site -- the one that doesn't update anymore. I started by copying their 0 day data and the data from the last day they updated, and those data points became my starting data points.
For more recent data, I had a few problems:
(1) robosats uses a "federated" model now where usage is split up across four folks who are operating the backend, so I can't just query one source of data anymore, I have to query all four and then add their data together -- but adding is easy to do so nbd.
(2) robosats is availably only via tor, and I usually try to avoid writing things that require me to run a server. Servers cost money and I have trouble maintaining them, eventually whatever I put on a server seems to stop running because I stopped paying for the server. But I did find a service that rents vps's at a monthly rate of only $3, so I decided to give it a whirl.
Two apps I wrote
I wrote a pair of python & nodejs apps that run once per day and which I'm hosting on that $3-per-month vps. The python app is based on my old tortalker software but I generalized it: a clearnet-only app can talk to my python app, and pass it any onion address with an api key to prevent people from spamming it. My python app will retrieve that address's contents over tor and return the results over clearnet.
My nodejs app just passes every robosats operator's tor domain to my python app and basically asks it to query for their api info, which lists stuff like how many contracts they processed today, how many btcs they handled, and the cumulative total they've handled over their lifetime. When it gets the results it sums this info, broadcasts a note to nostr saying what the latest data is, and then sleeps for 24 hours before running again.
IPv6 problem
The vps I'm using (skhron.com.ua) only supports ipv6, not ipv4. This means it can't "talk to" legacy websites -- only ones which resolve to an ipv6 address. At this point that means it can talk to most websites, but I found it had lots of trouble talking to nostr relays! None of the ones I usually use have an ipv6 address. But I found this list of relays and just went through them one by one, using this tool to check if they had an ipv6 address. Eventually I found that this relay does: junxingwang.org -- so that's the nostr relay I'm using for this project.
Wrapping up
Now that I have a source that publishes the latest robosats stats every day it was easy! I made a little webpage that uses nostr to grab all events from my little bot, and I hard coded in the original info from learn.robosats.com/stats as a "starting point" for my charts. So now the charts pick up where the old site left off, and I did some averaging/guessing to "fill in the gap" between July of last year and now. These averages also produce a weird super-straight line so I added in some randomness that makes the line look more natural. Eventually, when I have enough of my own data, I will probably eliminate that noise, but for now it helps.
Voila! A new robosats tracker that you can point to as evidence that at least one darknet market on the lightning network has meaningful usage. I wonder how to find out if it is used more than most monero-based darkmarkets. 🤔
reply
10 sats \ 0 replies \ @supertestnet OP 1 Aug
Update: I removed the random noise generator after someone showed me a better source of data. It turns out, robosats coordinators have an endpoint ("api/ticks") where they will tell you about each of the trades they did during a given month, including the amount traded, the currency pair, and the timestamp. So I modified my scraper to collect all of that info, produce "summary files" for every month, and a daily report based on those summary files.
Someone also sent me "historical" data from the original robosats coordinator who is no longer operative, but he (or a friend) was kind enough to send me a monthly report from his node for each of the months when he was active.
So the data is much better now, and I added a new "options" button where you can filter the data to only show info about specific currencies. I think it's pretty neat! And I also learned a lot about how to use the chart.js library in the process :D
reply
60 sats \ 0 replies \ @WeAreAllSatoshi 30 Jul
Great write up, thank you for sharing!
reply
144 sats \ 12 replies \ @ek 30 Jul
Mhh, I wouldn't consider Robosats a market where you buy stuff, it's a bitcoin p2p exchange
reply
142 sats \ 9 replies \ @nout 31 Jul
Yeah, we collided with @supertestnet exactly on this definition.
To me robosats is p2p exchange with parts that may or may not be illegal/illicit, but it's not a market. Exchange imo isn't market. And I don't understand where is this focus on including robosats into DNM definition coming from?
If you ride your car on train tracks, it doesn't become train. Nothing wrong with that, it can still be a solid car...
reply
132 sats \ 8 replies \ @supertestnet OP 31 Jul
Think of a bazaar, with vendors hawking goods and buyers bustling about. A classic marketplace. One of the stalls is bound to be a money changer. He fits right in with the rest: just like everyone else, he has a product to sell, and the market demands it, so he sets up a booth and wiles his wares. An exchanger is absolutely a seller/vendor/merchant, and a website that hosts them is therefore a digital market. That is why I insist they count.
Also, the monero people have concocted this false narrative that bitcoin is unfit for and unused on these darknet websites where privacy is a priority and the operators must evade authorities. Robosats is a shining example to the contrary. It is every bit as privacy/resiliency focused as other DNMs, it actually provides a better experience than they do, and from what I can tell, it fits right in with their favorites in terms of adoption and engagement. So it bursts their narrative: they claim that the most popular DNMs avoid bitcoin in favor of monero but here's an upstart that relies on it exclusively and is maybe even growing faster and innovating more than theirs are.
True, but if you optimize it for the tracks, strip away the car-ness and replace those parts with train parts, before long you've got a train. And robosats didn't even have to do that -- it is a market that was born on the dark web and is not only growing up there but thriving. I don't think it matters that drugs are not commonly sold there. It's a niche market, a market for money, but a market nonetheless, and it's firmly on the darknet -- accessible nowhere else. Nothing could count more as a darknet market.
reply
132 sats \ 1 reply \ @nout 31 Jul
As someone not from US, the term "money exchange" is a very specific thing that's very common, it has a very specific purpose and it's not generally a part of a market.
My guess is that @ek is also thinking about the sign "Geld wechseln" on top of a little window in a train station...
And so I think our disagreement may be stemming from something like this.
I agree with you that if you squint your eyes, then we can call robosats DNM, but I generally try to call things by their primary usecase/purpose or objective...
- Like Emacs would fit definition of an Operating System, but I think most would agree that it's primary purpose is text editor.
- Car on train tracks would fit the definition of a train unless you get really anal, but I think most people would see it and still call it a car.
I saw the thread with Monero people, but I don't think your arguments there were convincing to change anyones mind. Exactly for the reason that when you focus on adjusting someone's terminology (that may be locale specific...), they are less likely to accept your practical point. Better strategy is to find the common language first with open mind and build the argument from there...
reply
22 sats \ 0 replies \ @jgbtc 31 Jul
Sometimes changing someone's mind is just not possible no matter how good the arguments are.
reply
71 sats \ 5 replies \ @yo2xncv0 3 Aug
You're not bursting any narrative. You're just being pedantic and stretching the common understanding of a darknet market. Robosats is a fiat crypto exchange over tor.
Robosats is also very very low daily volume even among other low volume DEXs, so I don't see how it helps your point, that's why you had to make a cumulative chart to make it seem larger than it is.
All major darknet markets accept and recommend Monero. Some major ones, like Archetype, are even exclusively Monero-only. You dont have to take my word for it you can easily go see for yourself. A few even accept LTC. But you won't find a single one that accepts lightning. It's not a thing.
reply
179 sats \ 4 replies \ @supertestnet OP 3 Aug
If the common understanding of DNM is "a place to buy drugs" then the common understanding should be stretched. Just as too many people associate tor with crime, too many people associate DNMs with crime. And just as mainstream companies use tor so their users can browse privately (see the bbc's tor domain and ProPublica), so also, mainstream companies run DNMs so their users can shop privately -- even facebook runs a DNM.
So to those who say "Noooo reeeee it's only a DNM if there's crime there!" I say, no, you're wrong. As the name implies (not to mention pretty much every published definition), what makes it a DNM is if it's a market accessed via the darknet. Robosats obviously qualifies.
So I recommend not spreading the "crime only" definition. It is harmful to privacy because it scares away legitimate users. There's nothing wrong with DNMs. It's just a marketplace that respects your privacy. It's a good thing.
reply
90 sats \ 2 replies \ @yo2xncv0 4 Aug
It's not my problem what other people associate it with. I could care less. It's as stupid as associating cash with "a way to buy drugs"
That's just the common understanding of DNMs. I'm not the one who made it that way. Even if we take up your broader definition of DNMs, which I'm not necessarily opposed to because it makes sense, lightning STILL remains largely unused there. Again, don't see how it helps your case but go for it.
The reason why "criminals" using it is important is if it protects those users, the ones working under extremely adversarial markets, then it shows it will protect any average user in practice. Not just in theory, which is all lightning has been so far. It hasn't been stress-tested in those conditions yet. Those markets have completely rejected it. You can speculate why that is, but that is just a fact. Maybe it will change with BOLT12 we'll see.
Yea, BBC and ProPublica have sites on the darknet. How does that make them a DNM? Your point?
"So I recommend not spreading the "crime only" definition. It is harmful to privacy because it scares away legitimate users. There's nothing wrong with DNMs"
And theres nothing wrong with making voluntary transactions either. You can use Monero for whatever you want just like cash. Drugs or boring groceries. That's what makes it digital cash.
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Bell_curve 4 Aug
Which exchange sells monero?
Is it all peer to peer?
reply
21 sats \ 0 replies \ @yo2xncv0 5 Aug
Bisq, Haveno, BasicSwapDEX, UnstoppableSwap (all used or can be used through tor)
LocalMonero/AgoraDesk (really popular p2p exchange that had a tor site and recently closed down presumably because the uncertain legal climate around Samourai crackdown)
Monero is delisted from almost every major centralized exchange. The most recent one was Binance earlier this year (largest exchange on the planet by far). Theres only a handful left like Kraken and only in the USA if i remember right.
No I'm sure it's not all p2p, but willing to bet it's disproportionately p2p vs Bitcoin and other crypto because of the above
reply on another page
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 3 Aug
I or we need more places to buy drugs, dark net market or otherwise
reply
121 sats \ 0 replies \ @supertestnet OP 30 Jul
An exchange is a market where you buy stuff, namely, other money.
Also, people sell gift cards and packets of cash on robosats all the time, and those are some of the things you traditionally find on other darknet markets.
Also #2, plenty of people on monero DNMs create offers where they basically say "send me X xmr and I will send you Y btc or Z ltc or Q tron" where X, Y, Z, and Q are based on the current exchange rates. So darknet markets are for exchanging currencies too, just like robosats.
Also #3, nothing stops you from selling non-moneys on robosats. You can create your own trading pairs, so if you want to sell bottles of ketchup, just make an offer that you'll give someone 30 bottles of ketchup for .0004 btc or whatever.
reply
76 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 30 Jul
You're buying fiat.
reply
132 sats \ 4 replies \ @SatsMate 31 Jul
Is this the gold standard way of getting non kyc corn? Have you had any bad experiences with robosats yet?
reply
171 sats \ 1 reply \ @supertestnet OP 31 Jul
I had one guy ghost me after accepting one of my offers. He never paid. But it worked out in my favor -- after 24 hours I got to split his bond with the operator, so the "bad guy" lost money and I gained it! That was the only time someone has tried to do anything malicious to me. But other people have had bad experiences, e.g. see this reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/robosats/comments/1e4r106/i_was_scammed/
reply
21 sats \ 0 replies \ @SatsMate 1 Aug
yikes, thats horrible. What a corporate response from venmo. They want to eliminate all activity that isn't tracked and compliant though...
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @anon 31 Jul
You should start learning vexl
reply
21 sats \ 0 replies \ @SatsMate 1 Aug
problem is vexl isn't in the U.S.
reply
100 sats \ 1 reply \ @Bell_curve 30 Jul
I wish dark markets would use lightning
reply
31 sats \ 0 replies \ @supertestnet OP 30 Jul
robosats is an example of one that does
this one also does: iftfujvg3tv6v5fcilgswbkkntdfd7bphyuth6zfyghqrwj3kowxwbad.onion
there are probably more, I'm not a DNM expert
reply
21 sats \ 0 replies \ @globalmerchant 31 Jul
Very cool !
reply
21 sats \ 0 replies \ @e6b02e007e 31 Jul freebie
Sure!!!
reply
21 sats \ 2 replies \ @sangekrypto 31 Jul
I see it looks like this is a new site, right? they named RoboSats which they launched to track statistics RoboSats, a peer-to-peer (P2P) exchange platform for Bitcoin transactions.
Does RoboSats allow users to exchange Bitcoin privately for national currencies without KYC verification?
I also noticed that this platform uses the Lightning Network to enable fast and private transactions and uses avatars that can maintain the anonymity of its users.
reply
21 sats \ 1 reply \ @supertestnet OP 31 Jul
Yes, it's a new site that tracks robosats volume and usage statistics.
Yes, robosats lets users buy and sell bitcoin anonymously.
reply
21 sats \ 0 replies \ @sangekrypto 31 Jul
but I don't think all countries include this language, bro, for example Indonesian or India? It's still limited, bro.
reply
21 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 30 Jul
Dude. You are so productive. Blows my mind.
reply
21 sats \ 0 replies \ @MiddleWay 30 Jul
very cool, and a nice tutorial!
reply
0 sats \ 6 replies \ @Tony 31 Jul
This is super cool! Is it possible / do you have plans to provide stats for separate currencies?
reply
21 sats \ 5 replies \ @supertestnet OP 31 Jul
All my info comes from what the robosats operators self report and they do not currently report stats about the separate currencies
reply
0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Tony 31 Jul
I see, thanks
reply
21 sats \ 3 replies \ @supertestnet OP 31 Jul
Nevermind, today someone showed me a more complete info source from each operator that includes specific info about each contract including the currency used and the amount transacted. Looks like I've got work to do
reply
0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Tony 31 Jul
LFG!
reply
52 sats \ 1 reply \ @supertestnet OP 1 Aug
Done! There is now an "options" button where you can filter the data so it only shows info about specific currencies
https://supertestnet.github.io/robostats/
reply
22 sats \ 0 replies \ @Tony 1 Aug
Great work, man! Thanks!
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @e499b8a238 31 Jul freebie
H
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @NaOD 30 Jul outlawed
stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.