The alternative argument, which I identify with, and which is clearly the minority view in the West, is that the United States and its allies provoked the war. This is not to deny, of course, that Russia invaded Ukraine and started the war. But the principal cause of the conflict is the NATO decision to bring Ukraine into the alliance, which virtually all Russian leaders see as an existential threat that must be eliminated. NATO expansion, however, is part of a broader strategy that is designed to make Ukraine a Western bulwark on Russia’s border. Bringing Kyiv into the European Union (EU) and promoting a color revolution in Ukraine – turning it into pro-Western liberal democracy – are the other two prongs of the policy. Russia leaders fear all three prongs, but they fear NATO expansion the most. To deal with this threat, Russia launched a preventive war on 24 February 2022.
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This is such a bullshit. There was no real plans or actions for Ukraine to join NATO before 2022
What was Maidan 2014 about if not NATO expansion?
A revolution against an extremely corrupt government that went against the will of the people.
A color revolution orchestrated by the West
Yeah that's Russian line which is completely false. Yanukovich left office and was legally, constitutionally voted out of office even by his own party. But you haven't heard about this, am I wrong?
You are incorrect
Yanukovich was deposed (coup) not voted out of office. "Legally, constitutionally voted out of office" doesn't happen in Ukraine.
Am I wrong?
How was it a coup? There was a legal vote in a verhovna rada to impeach him. Learn the history before you judge
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity#Removal_of_Yanukovych
Well if you think. Information and a chronology of events in Ukraine and Russia since 1991 are freely available on the Internet. It is up to everyone how they deal with them. But I would accuse NATO and the West at most of printing money and not arming enough.
Not arming enough for sure There are 32 members in NATO Only 6 have spent 2 percent of GDP on defense
Zelensky represents the will of the people?
Popular sovereignty does not exist in Ukraine or Russia. Let's get that myth out of the way.
There were free elections in Ukraine that Zelensky won. Yes there's a lot of corruption but he also was the first in decades to actually lessen it. Meanwhile Russia poisoned Yuschenko in 2004 to maitain their grasp over the country with Yanukovich
I thought Wikileaks had revealed in 2008 Bush's plan to extend NATO to Georgia and Ukraine which infuriated Moscow ("nyet means nyet") and led to Russian's action in Georgia and their interest in keeping Ukraine neutral which failed in 2014 when Yanukovich had to flee the country after the Maiden coup
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html
Did Russia invade Ukraine when Ukraine was neutral or when it joined NATO? We know the answer, so keep the downplaying of Russian aggression against an independent country.
Ukraine was not neutral
You can't poke a bear then say the bear started it
Ukraine has been neutral until now. She still hasn't entered anywhere.
The bear roared and screamed drunk long before 2014. What nudge are you talking about?
I said poke
Poke is more provocative than nudge
The instigator is NATO at this point; I believe Ukraine wants a ceasefire but then the NATO will cut off aid after destroying the country. Zelensky is being coerced and blackmailed by NATO.
Did you read Wikileaks cable shared by @wingalt?
I love Wikileaks
Nyet means nyet makes me laugh every fucking time
Thanks for sharing wikileaks cable, which the anti Russian crowd ( my guess is they are from the Baltic States) refuse to read because they are allergic to truth and fact
who is GOR in the wikileaks transcript?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Burns_%28diplomat%29
edit: William J Burns is the current director of CIA
never mind
GOR = government of Russia
Yes!
2008 Bucharest Summit also
edit: Can't beat primary sources, we are re-living history, 2008!
As well as with Sweden and Finland. Russia only got longer borders with NATO after the 2022.
Edit: Putin, not Russia
2008 summit in Bucharest
The Russians attacked Ukraine because they hate the Ukrainians and want to destroy them. Don't look for any NATO or other nonsense in this.
Russia hates Ukraine but it fears NATO
Were the Russians afraid of Nato when they razed Chechnya to the ground? Or when they took a few percent of the land of Georgia? No NATO is to blame. Moskoviti (the old name of the Russians) are imperialists who plunder Ukrainian territories at least once every century.
Ukraine is different from Georgia and Chechnya
It’s a large country that borders Russia
It’s also a terrible idea for NATO to expand membership to Ukraine, a poor corrupt country
Zelensky is open to a ceasefire.
Edit: Hate alone isn’t the reason for invading or going to war. Fear , honor or interest
I didn't just mention hatred. Logically, this is not a reason to attack, of course, there is more. But fairy tales about evil NATO are ordinary lies and excuses. The aggressive and imperialist nature of the Russians themselves plays a major role.
I never said evil NATO. NATO is being geopolitically reckless and naive.
Russia's imperialist nature is not relevant. Putin is not Peter the Great or Stalin.
Yes, he is more like Nicholas I, who made imperial wars to conquer new territories (Russo-Persian War, Russo-Turkish War, crushed Polish uprising) until he lost Crimean War.
NATO does not expand, countries join NATO if they will to.
NATO is not Ellis Island. Unanimous consensus among existing members is a requirement.
USA senate must approve any new members with a super majority, 2/3 or 67 votes.
Exactly. Many counties want to join nsto, mostly Russia neighbour that are afraid of being attacked like Georgia or Moldavia. But NATO I'd actually very reluctant to get new members and there was 0 chance before 2022 for Ukraine to join
Ukraine doesn't have 67 votes in US Senate
NATO expanded recently with Sweden and Finland
There were 12 founding members in 1949, now there are 32.
Why is Montenegro a member of NATO?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit : Georgia and Ukraine
This is a conversation that the ones founding the war do not want to have.
They have been prepping this up since 2016 with the 4 year Russia collusion Hoax.
As soon as Democrats got in office, Nato / Ukraine make their perfectly timed move.
look at the bright side, we figured out War cures covid.
👏👏👏🎯
Regardless of who caused the war, it does not explain why the deal made in Istanbul in March 2022 between Russia and Ukraine was sabotaged by the West (i.e., Boris Johnson and Biden) and led to unnecessary deaths on both sides. The West through NATO is pushing for war it makes no sense that a regional dispute could not be solved diplomatically and that every chance of escalation was taken to continue the money grab from the US taxpayer
Russia was the first to violate the Budepast Memorandum by attacking Ukraine in 2014. So complain to the Russians that your printed dollars are going to help Ukraine.
Memo is not a treaty
Budapest Memo was never ratified by US Senate
If political commitment is nothing for an American today, then go to the polls and change it.
If Trump is elected, there will be a ceasefire in Ukraine and Israel
We'll see.
https://twitter.com/JDVance/status/1819343544986788020?
Thanks for the pointer to this article. Very interesting.
Also...the destruction of the Nordstream pipeline? We all know it was the US, right?
Seymour Hersh: How the US Took Out the Nord Stream Pipeline
I first heard of Mearsheimer in the 1990s and he was a critic of China even then
I watched his video on how the situation in Ukraine was the fault of the west in 2014. He has been very consistent.
He is also a critic of Israel lobby
I love Seymour, old school journalism
these guys are killing it on substack
to me was primarily caused by a combination of factors, including political unrest, historical tensions, and regional disputes. Some key events that contributed to the conflict include the annexation of Crimea by Russia in 2014, the ousting of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, and the ongoing military intervention by pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine.
There are pro Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine?
I have to ask for verification because I know some people reading this thread will vehemently disagree
The understanding I have is when the cold war ended NATO and the US promised they would not expand.
Then, NATO expanded.. continued to expand.. even though we made a deal not to..
Russia states that Ukraine is a no go, it would be the final straw, they would be forced to react...
Shit happens, Ukraine shows intentions and desire to join NATO.. Putin follows through.
For at least a decade, we knew Ukraine was the last straw, Russia practically begged (in their own cute way) and here we are now.
this is my understanding as well
In 1997 George Kennan and Paul Nitze, the original architects of Cold War containment, stated publicly NATO expansion will increase Russian nationalism and destabilize the region.
I think it's obvious from some of the comments that emotions and personal animus toward Russia and not geopolitical calculations are driving support for Ukraine and NATO expansion
Even some of the rhetoric like it's up to Ukraine to join NATO, it's their right, their choice
NATO is not abortion, it's not pro choice
People really want stuff to be good guys vs bad guys. Black and white. Sadly that is rarely the case. The plebs pay with their blood.
The US was in a pickle thanks to the deal Clinton struck with Russia after the fall of the USSR when the nukes in Ukraine were a whole deal. If Putin had been smart he would have maintained the Crimean-occupied status quo but he has talked for years about returning Russia to its former glory and his pals have run with this. Hell some of them have been talking for months about "taking back Alaska" which I mean is absolutely hilarious given the sheer amount of firepower stationed there.
Russia's preventative war has ended up draining it of a ridiculous amount of men and military hardware. Not only that but they managed to make what was thought to not be that great of a system in the Patriot System look out of the world fantastic. He might end up "winning" the war and getting the lands he has already taken but Russia is having a huge population drop and while the same can be said about Ukraine those citizens have said they would return once the hostilities end. No one wants to go back to Russia.
Mearsheimer lays out his 7 point case
He has been saying this since 2014
Lecture is on YouTube and I thought for sure YouTube would take it down
Edit: Budapest memorandum? I have heard people refer to this memorandum to justify aid to Ukraine