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Fold card is highly sus and oh yeah, fucKYC
1811 sats \ 49 comments \ @_stacktoshi 6 Sep bitcoin
I've been trying to get a damn Fold card for about a year now. I attended my first bitcoin meetup Spring of '23 and the majority of attendees were paying with their Fold cards, bragging about their "sats back" and free spins to win more bitcoin. I didn't think much of it because I don't like using debit cards (no 30+ day float) and thought I could get better fiat rewards that I could easily convert into sats, even KYC free (indirectly). Then a few months later I heard that people were paying their mortgage with the damn thing. That got me really interested because I had only ever heard of paying your mortgage off directly from a bank account. Getting $30-$50 back in sats every month without lifting a finger seemed like a nice bonus. Downloaded the app, did the kyc bullshit and a couple days later they come back and say they can't verify my identity. I complain to support and they ask me to upload a screenshot:
https://m.stacker.news/50345https://m.stacker.news/50336
So I wrote them off. A little while later I heard you couldn't pay off loans anymore, so no loss. After hearing an interview with the founder recently (somehow they're going public and Peter McCormack was just smitten with him), I decided to give them a second try. I think Guy Swann mentioned that they started the loan payments back up again. I tried a different email address, but they need to verify your phone number. The problem is that they won't allow you to sign up with the same number, so I had to contact them to remove the old one. Wait a couple of days... And they come back with this:
https://m.stacker.news/50341
"Hey,"
Yeah, that kind of respect & courtesy deserves a bunch of fiat IPO wealth. They claim to make their money off of fees, but they have to be selling this data to the highest bidder. And who do you think would be really interested in consumers trying to get rewards in a non-jurisdictional form of money?? From a privacy & sovereignty standpoint, Fold card might actually be a net loss. A few "free" sats just isn't worth it. I regret spending all this time on this crap, but companies like Fold don't share our values, and the word needs to get out.
Please correct me on any of this. I'll be happy to take it down if I'm mistaken in any way.
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391 sats \ 22 replies \ @BlokchainB 6 Sep freebie
Great another bitcoin business basher. Yet I bet you have a bank balance or hold cash.
I understand your high standards you place on Bitcoin companies but at the same time you have to recognize how difficult it is to build a bitcoin business in a fiat world.
Fold is a step function better than using a bank to pay your bills. It is unfortunate you had such a hard time with customer service with your account setup but that is the norm with the majority of bitcoin businesses. I much rather deal with the stress of using a bitcoin business than keep all my cash at Wells Fargo and use Zelle.
Fold operates in the fiat space thus if you are upset about KYC then don’t use the product. But the more you use fold the more you empower bitcoiners to change the status quo. The revenue they generate off of you is going into their bitcoin treasury thus making the bitcoin you own likely to appreciate due to supply dynamics. Or use their treasury to challenge Visa and Mastercard for payments.
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154 sats \ 4 replies \ @grayruby 6 Sep
All good points here but the company should provide the potential user reasoning for why they are denying him access.
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139 sats \ 2 replies \ @BlokchainB 6 Sep freebie
This is a break down in customer service. I agree they need better customer support. I been burned by many bitcoin businesses over the years. They need to improve. But saying they aren’t a bitcoin business is ridiculous
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152 sats \ 0 replies \ @gmd 7 Sep
yeah i love my foldcard
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby 7 Sep
All tech businesses seem really bad at customer service.
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 7 Sep
should provide the potential user reasoning for why they are denying him access.
Why? It's common that companies can deny service to anyone for any reason and they don't have to tell you why. For example, see the ToS of Fold themselves:
3. Access to the Services
Fold retains the right, at our sole discretion, to deny service or use of the Services or an account to anyone at any time and for any reason.
-- https://foldapp.com/legal/terms-and-conditions
I know it sucks as a customer but from their perspective, it's reasonable.
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141 sats \ 4 replies \ @DarthCoin 6 Sep
Companies that are selling you fiat cards are NOT Bitcoin companies! They are perpetuating the use of fiat.
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121 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 7 Sep
They are perpetuating the use of fiat.
They are lowering the ladder instead of pulling it up after them
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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @BlokchainB 6 Sep freebie
And I bet you this company has way more BTC than you do by creating a business and getting revenues that allows them to out stack you.
10 sats \ 11 replies \ @_stacktoshi OP 6 Sep
I said I'd be happy to take this down if I'm convinced otherwise. I really want to be wrong about this success story and can't stand tradfi.
Are they really a bitcoin business though? They're giving users some of their bitcoin in exchange for something. Yes, they have a treasury, but they're not doing it for anyone's benefit except their own. Being a bitcoiner is not about altruism.
This isn't just one bad experience. It's two. 2 for 2. This policy has been in place for at least 10 months. Wondering if you're on some sort of fincen watch list is NOT a good feeling.
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114 sats \ 10 replies \ @BlokchainB 6 Sep freebie
Yes they are. You need to understand their business model.
Think about it like this.
Fold is a bitcoin rewards company. At first they were going to use the lightning network to make purchases of gift cards and offer sats back on those purchases.
This didn’t scale and wasn’t profitable for the following reasons:
  1. Not many people use lightning to make payments
  2. Bitcoiners are scared to spend because of cap gains tax by IRS
  3. Bitcoiners rather spend dirty fiat than precious sats
So they pivoted and made a deal with visa and moved into the rewards business.
Visa charges banks and merchants fees to process transactions. As people swipe their cards (debit and credit) more fees are earned by Visa and the banks. So when you use your bank branded Visa card they make a little fee on every swipe. Currently banks can’t do anything with bitcoin so they offer other rewards like points and cash back. What fold does is pay you out the rewards in bitcoin and the revenue they make they pay their expenses then stack bitcoin. That is why they have 1,000 BTC on their balance sheet. And the more bitcoin they stack the better it is for all bitcoiners.
The current regulations make it nearly impossible to operate a legal financial business using bitcoin. Fold is coming for the rewards pie and doing a good job of it.
I’m not on some watch list I just understand how hard it is to build a business on bitcoin. While they don’t meet your expectations then don’t use them. What I’m trying do is bring a diff ent way of thinking instead of this group think everything is bad and evil and these stupid purity tests. Even Hal himself believed in bitcoin banks.
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0 sats \ 9 replies \ @_stacktoshi OP 7 Sep
No, I was saying I feel like I'm on some watchlist because they're not telling me what I did wrong.
The rewards market is crap. It's just an elaborate network marketing kickback scheme. Sellers pass on all CC fee costs they incur to buyers. Buyers believe they're getting "rewarded", but it's really just enticing them to be data-mined by one card over another. Yeah, some of the reward is covered by late and financing fees, and some of the transaction costs does actually cover operational expenses, but at the end of the day, if rewards didn't exist, all fees (merchant & late fees) would be lower, in a competitive environment. People just like feeling special, even though they're just being socially engineered.
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55 sats \ 8 replies \ @ek 7 Sep
because they're not telling me what I did wrong.
Companies don't have to tell you anything, they even tell you that they don't with "at our sole discretion" phrases in their ToS. Fold has that, too:
3. Access to the Services
Fold retains the right, at our sole discretion, to deny service or use of the Services or an account to anyone at any time and for any reason.
-- https://foldapp.com/legal/terms-and-conditions
I know it sucks as a customer but from their perspective, it's reasonable.
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80 sats \ 7 replies \ @_stacktoshi OP 7 Sep
When did I claim companies had no legal right to be dicks? This post is about Fold being dicks when they don’t have to be. They don’t owe me anything if they don’t want people like me as customers. It’s okay though, I shouldn’t be the “free” product anyway.
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136 sats \ 6 replies \ @ek 7 Sep
When did I claim companies had no legal right to be dicks?
From your reply:
If I'm denied credit, the creditor must tell me why. The fact that you won't tell me makes me think there's something nefarious going on there.
You're acting entitled to information you're not (and apparently even know you're not) and even claim they are doing something illegal.
This post is about Fold being dicks when they don’t have to be
Where is their dick move? That they simply denied you service and information like any other company would reasonably do in such a case?
Afaict, you're being a dick to them:
Please escalate this case to someone with common sense there.
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0 sats \ 5 replies \ @_stacktoshi OP 7 Sep
Illegal and nefarious are two separate things. KYC is legal. It is also immoral, given the ways it can ruin someone’s life via identity theft and unwarranted surveillance by the state. It totally violates the spirit of the 4th Amendment. Forget the current law for a second: why are they entitled to a lot of my personal information but I’m not entitled to information why they believe I’m a risk? Does that make any moral sense?
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188 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 6 Sep
What do you expect from a fiat card? When people will get this meme?
https://i.postimg.cc/PJSt0ZPC/satoshi-god-visa.jpg
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Natalia 7 Sep
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25 sats \ 0 replies \ @thebullishbitcoiner 6 Sep
Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree that a few “free” sats aren’t worth it. And we all know that it’s not free right, everything comes at a price. In this case, the price is KYC and having to run as much of your finances as you can through them to get as much sats as possible.
I’ve had my account frozen before so I closed it as soon as I was able to get my first 50K minimum rewards redemption. I wasn’t even FOMO’ing when I saw that they were going to allow mortgage payments again.
All these things just aren’t giving permissionless. And for that reason, I’m out.
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41 sats \ 0 replies \ @Akg10s33 6 Sep
Wow! What a coincidence, just this morning I was listening to a post... more like a 2140 live stream from lunaticoin... and its information is very interesting as always!! They were talking about this very thing... the great elites trying to control and disguise the way they are trying to control and regulate our freedom!! In other words, our bitcoins offer you some additional sats... and supposedly free... but I assure you that it is not worth it, in the long run it will be a scam!! and that it will only create profit for them!!
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43 sats \ 1 reply \ @Manikese 6 Sep
I personally think it is a big waste of time. I had to do the spins every day. I’d have to load the card for purchases and manage the rewards. After a year I canceled. It cost $150 to get the card and I got about $50 back in BTC. It wasn’t worth it for me.
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31 sats \ 0 replies \ @gmd 7 Sep
if you have any citicards it’s great via paypal to get an extra 0.5% back.
also if you make estimated IRS tax payments quarterly it pays for itself by a mile
rewards neutered compared to the golden times in 2021 though
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11 sats \ 1 reply \ @Wumbo 6 Sep
Did they say what discrepancies they where seeing?
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20 sats \ 0 replies \ @_stacktoshi OP 6 Sep
They didn’t the first time. I doubt they will this time. Hopefully I’m wrong. Maybe it will prevent this kind of thing in the future if I know why I was treated like a criminal
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @bitalion 7 Sep
That's what usually happens when you mix bitcoin with the traditional fiat world. You have to do what the regulators say. If Satoshi created bitcoin it was to take that power away from him and put it back in your hands. Never accept KYC with bitcoin there is always a way.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @_stacktoshi OP 7 Sep
I know. I struggled with Bisq for a while but recently it’s been awesome. I think I only use my KYC accounts on the go just to scratch that itch
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @DeltaClimbs 7 Sep
As always, I was talking shit about them before it was the cool thing to do.
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @03393ec3a3 7 Sep
For real - the yellow "Spin" card is a complete waste. It no longer confers any benefits - it is simply a way to use/withdraw your Fold balance at this point. Nevermind sats - not even spins are given with purchases or bill payments for "Spin" users. Total weaksauce, but if you stop using it, there is an inactivity fee, lol.
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satoshi__Nakamoto 6 Sep
This kinda of problem sucks
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @BTC_Bellzer 6 Sep
They've not been able to verify most of my referrals which has really driven me up the wall, never an explanation either.
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14 sats \ 0 replies \ @BTC_Bellzer 7 Sep
I will add, where you mention "if denied credit..." this is a debit card, not credit so maybe different rules apply?
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 6 Sep
That's a bummer. I haven't had any issues like that, but if I had, my reaction would have been similar to yours.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @sangekrypto 7 Sep
It seems that there are more and more KYC businesses, my advice is to be careful in complying with the KYC system.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @TNStacker 7 Sep
I had no problem getting a card with them but it was a while back.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SpaceHodler 7 Sep
I don't know about Fold, but I've had an attempt to open a bank account declined in the UK without an explanation. (Presumably based on the data I provided in the form about my finances and intended use of the account). A year later I tried again and they declined it right after I gave them my phone number, before I even gave them my name.
Then someone told me I could request for my personal data to be deleted, as per some GDPR law, and then try again. It had worked for them. I've requested it and been told my data has been deleted. Haven't tried opening an account again with them yet as I no longer need it.
It may not work in the US though if there is no 'right to be forgotten' there. (Which is really an entitlement and not a right).
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0 sats \ 5 replies \ @cascdr 6 Sep
@CHADBot /trumpMode for
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31 sats \ 3 replies \ @CHADBot 6 Sep bot
Fantastic point @_stacktoshi! The Fold card really is a mess. It’s not about a paltry sum, it's about RESPECT! They think they can mess with people's data and harvest it to the highest bidder, while offering pathetic 'sats back'? Terrible! Everyone deserves privacy and sovereignty. This company clearly is NOT aligned with OUR values. BAD DEAL! They just want our data and try to sweeten the pot with Bitcoins. Not worth it! #StayWoke #InFoldWeDoNotTrust
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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @_stacktoshi OP 6 Sep
not bad! but #StayWoke ???
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20 sats \ 1 reply \ @cascdr 6 Sep
look @_stacktoshi I don't let libs tell me what terms I can and can't use. I'm a trend setter. A renegade. Everyone knows it folks. I'm reclaiming the term.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @_stacktoshi OP 6 Sep
😂
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @CHADBot 6 Sep bot
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82 sats \ 0 replies \ @Natalia 7 Sep
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