Moving to El Salvador and alikes may not be a good idea \ stacker news ~alter

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Moving to El Salvador and alikes may not be a good idea

1598 sats \ 47 comments \ @Butterfinger 17 Oct alter_native

I have this idea that moving to another country may not be a great idea. Despite a few favorable aspects, countries like El Salvador until recently had a lot of latin american countries. Of course escaping north korea may be a good thing. But if you live in an european or north america country, and moving to a country in the third world there are many aspects that will disappoint you. But the idea in my head is that with bitcoin, nostr, freedom tech you can be anyhwhere and as obama said, have your own swiss bank in your pocket. The ammount of accumulation of capital, and the consequence of that which is huge infrastructure built in first world countries muss not be underestimated, which leads to a better life, more time to build even more solutions and etc in avicious cycle. There's a lot of fear in the first world countries, which are non existent in the third world south countries, but moving there may have more disavantages in the long run. What do you think about that?

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45 sats \ 1 reply \ @SpaceHodler 17 Oct

It's good to have optionality and an escape valve.

It's dangerous to rely on Western countries, because such reliance means those countries can screw you over all they want. You need a way to say FU to them, even if you never actually use it. That's what they're afraid of.

And it doesn't have to be a binary decision. You can e.g. move your business to one country and live in another. Or do the trifecta to avoid extortion.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Butterfinger OP 17 Oct

I partially agree, as I alreary live that life. That's why I see the differences.

34 sats \ 3 replies \ @denlillaapan 17 Oct

Been thinking about it a lot

(wrote an AIER piece on it earlier this year, #shameless #self-promotion: https://aier.org/article/foot-voting-reconsidered-how-should-i-think-about-leaving/)

If/when these freedom/BTC friendly countries succeed, I feel obligated to go there -- spend my money there, physically be there, support the cause.

But I also love the small, quiet, safe, comfortable life I have, even if it's under an overbearing northern Eur bs welfare state.

Having spent some time in these regions before, I know they can be dangerous, bureaucracy is beyond shit, things rarely work.

For now I'm sitting tight but carefully monitoring the exits :)

1 sat \ 2 replies \ @justanumber 17 Oct

I’m still young enough to consider seriously relocating without too much kerfuffle, but it’s still a costly and overwhelming prospect. If the Argentinian or Salvadorean experiments in liberty start bearing some serious fruits, I would feel morally obliged to support their shift toward liberty with my literal feet, with my presence, and ultimately citizenship. Where else would I want to be but in the very jurisdictions and places that are actually moving in the right directions?

The problem is, countries are constantly changing their criteria and rules for residency, so one can't assume options are always going to be available to everyone. The one thing that is guaranteed is that it will change.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Butterfinger OP 17 Oct

Yes, and just moving to another country without the citizenship will very expensive and burocratic boring having to deal with a lot of papers and asking permission for the state for many things.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @justanumber 17 Oct

yes this is the way it is, I'm afraid, fact of life :D

11 sats \ 2 replies \ @Signal312 17 Oct

Language is a big deal as well. You can learn another language with no accent, if you're introduced to it before the age of 13 or so. After that, you'll have an accent.

And after the age of 30 or 40, it becomes significantly more difficult to learn a language at all.

I knew a man who moved to the US from Columbia when he was 75 or so. The only English words he ever learned were Thank you, Hello, and Goodbye.

On the other hand, his immediate and extended family was in the US, and he did find a job (cleaning), so it was a good move for him and he was happy.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Butterfinger OP 17 Oct

Duolingo solves that, just put some effort on it.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @justanumber 17 Oct

This is very negative. You are just throwing up obstacles now. You do not need to move to a country and speak the language with no accent. If that was the case, nobody would go anywhere. Even in your country of origin you can move and have an accent with the same language. I have lived/travelled all over. I have met thousands of immigrants. Nobody cares if you have an accent.

23 sats \ 6 replies \ @siggy47 17 Oct

I know what you're referring to which people in developed countries take for granted: clean water, good plumbing, electricity, internet connection, roads, restaurants, bars, and a plethora of stores to buy whatever you desire. Still, the tradeoffs are becoming less and less worth it

88 sats \ 5 replies \ @SwearyDoctor 17 Oct

I did move to a latin american country. I have all of this. These are stereotypes. The buses here are better than in Europe and a LOT better than in North America (not really a context, there) Access to everything I need is safe and secure and cheaper. Also I'm far away from any war that may or not spread. There aren't cameras everywhere, nobody is surveilling my internet use (except the US, as it does everywhere). But locally, nobody cares what I post where.

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @justanumber 17 Oct

I wonder are people who throw out these kind of objections trying to justify and convince themselves they are doing the right thing by staying put? (which in all fairness, quite likely is the correct decision for them) But maybe they still have that curiosity that perhaps they are missing out (FOMO), wonder whether they really should or want confirmation they should not.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @justanumber 17 Oct

I've also encountered a lot of "stay and fight" "I'm not leaving my country" and a lot of other talk that comes off as nationalism (which, to me, is mainly a govt psyop). I get it. But I've moved around countries a fair bit in my life, so I don't have much allegiance to countries, flags, sports teams etc.. (more psyop) and I certainly aren't willing to die for any country's government or allow my children to either. When moving to other countries we never really know if it's the correct decision but I'm more often than not willing to take a punt. Certainly, moving to a developing country is a whole lot different to moving to another western or european country. It can be somewhat of an environment shock to begin with. In some places you can surprisinly get better health care, if you find the right places.

25 sats \ 0 replies \ @SwearyDoctor 17 Oct

the country I'm originally from is the last place on earth I'd fight or die for. Well, second to last. the last is the US, of course, the global dictator, but I'm not from there. and it's not so different, really. It depends of course, on whather you move to a bigger city or to the countryside; the countryside, yes, is different and does suffer some development issues; depends on the countryside. The cities don't. And a lot of the environment shock is really only due to the stereotypes you were saddled with. It looks a little different, and at first you suspect things that are in fact ghosts conjured up by bad expectations your home country set you up with. It's propaganda to portray these places as dirty mud huts. Before I left, I vividly remember my doctors trying to 10 different vaccines on me. Talking to them about it, it quickly became clear that they thought I'd sleep on a dirt floor, swim in rain puddles filled with bugs, and eat unwashed berries from the jungle. I told them, I've been there before. It's a normal house and the food comes from a normal supermarket, and yes the rivers are dirty, but everyone knows not to get near that water.

2 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 17 Oct

You convinced me. I'm packing my bags now.

43 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 17 Oct

deleted by author

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @justanumber 17 Oct

Speaking form experience, it's going to be mixed answers from different people. It's going to depend on their situation. For example, if people think their country may get involved in a war and they or their children may be forced by their owners (country's government) to put a uniform on & offered up as cannon fodder in some banker's war, they may look to secure a residence or citizenship elsewhere. Some people are less interested in western conveniences and some folk might think they'll die without starbucks or same day amazon delivery. Missing some modern luxuries might be well worth it for some and others not. Some folk just cannot stand the surveillance and oppression in their home countries, so are willing to try a less developed country. It doesn't mean it's going to be easy. Both options (staying or leaving) might be hard. Pick your hard. Staying might be easy in short term but harder later. Leaving will be harder and more effort in the short term but might pay off later. who knows

4 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheWildHustle 17 Oct

It's important to just make a logical decision, looking at as many factors possible, on where to put your meat suit.

Being constantly on the move would suit me. I often fantasize about living the nomad life like supertestgoat. Or making pizza and drinking beer in a hobbit hole in the mountains like Darthgoat.

I think fear holds people back from traveling more, and I think a lot of their fear may be somewhat irrational.

But what do I know, I'm TheWildHustle.

2 sats \ 0 replies \ @fm 17 Oct

I have this idea that moving to another country may not be a great idea.

I have the opposite idea.. Makes you grow in ways you could never imagine..

2 sats \ 1 reply \ @nym 17 Oct

You make some good points. Another big factor to consider is if you’re only alone, or responsible for your spouse and kids there too, medical etc…

25 sats \ 0 replies \ @justanumber 17 Oct

Having kids might be the reason you need get them out. Depending on which country you are in, it might not be safe for them. Being alone might be better to stay, since you are only risking yourself and can hide from the system easier.

2 sats \ 0 replies \ @BallLightning 17 Oct

I think for some people it's a good idea to move. For others it is bad. And there are also those to whom it doesn't make significant difference.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @anna 19 Oct

I would love to move to Latin America at some point. However I think it is really important to work to integrate into the community if I do. I’ve spent a good amount of time in Mexico and seen a lot of ex-pats that have an “us vs them” mentality with Mexicans and I find this really depressing (I hope there is less of this in other places)

Lots of Americans living in Mexico I’ve met either have remote jobs or own businesses geared to tourists, make no effort to speak Spanish, have people ship them supplies rather than shopping locally, and some have complained to me that locals are hostile to them.

I see a lot of benefits to moving to Latin America. But it seems obvious to me that if you have the benefit of an American salary, some of that should go to the local community you live in.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @7e6e393a56 17 Oct

There are many problems in South American countries, but don't believe everything that media companies publish and their impartiality. Many are stereotypes created to cause panic and degrade people as subhuman.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Butterfinger OP 17 Oct

true, best thing is to go there and see it by yourself, stay there like for at least 6 months then you can have your own opinion about it

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @4rge 17 Oct

Oh no way

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bitcoiner1 17 Oct

The world is a big place, it's great to travel and to live in other countries.

But, IMO most of the Bitcoiners have a wrong idea of how is life in El Salvador. Ask the locals about the real deal of living there.

0 sats \ 9 replies \ @BitByBit21 17 Oct

21 sats \ 8 replies \ @Butterfinger OP 17 Oct

I hope El Salvado succeeds and becomes the next Singapore, when actually it can be even so much better. But there's more to life for my own lifestyle that places like El Salvador lack or may never have. Mainly cultural things that I like from Europe a lot.

17 sats \ 7 replies \ @BitByBit21 17 Oct

I hope you'll never be forced to leave your country, but sooner or later it won't be a matter of choice for first world countries, since the illusion of comfort and security will crumble as the fiat world collapses.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @Butterfinger OP 17 Oct

third world fiat collapses first, but after the collapse Europe will still have its huge infrastructure and etc, trains and so on, things that third world countries will not build overnight, unfortunately.

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @justanumber 17 Oct

what happens if/when you can't get on those trains and other infrastructure because you don't have the digital ID, up to date jabs, bank account frozen etc... ?

15 sats \ 1 reply \ @Butterfinger OP 17 Oct

Well it is still a possibility, but in many latin american countries people aremuch more willing to accept facial recognition and eliminating cash than in most european countries. In brazil for example to enter any private condominium people are already using facial recognition as if it's a great tech thing.

22 sats \ 0 replies \ @justanumber 17 Oct

I personally think those people who accept the facial rec and other dystopia are everywhere. Perhaps it is better to be somewhere there is very strong cash economy. But then there is likely to be less of the infrastructure that you appreciate. There will always be ways the governments/corporations will find ways to trick ppl into slavery. i.e I was on a remote island during covid and many ppl were not registered with the govt for tax and existed in cash econ. but to get the covid subsidies they had to register. Now there is no going back for those people! They can't unregister. Where I am currently the banks/supermarkets offer discount for paying with cards, therefore driving the fazing out of cash. These discounts are quite generous and very tempting and I guess it's hard to say no for many. Many ppl don't have a bank account but perhaps they will get one now they offer the discount.

7 sats \ 2 replies \ @BitByBit21 17 Oct

The third world is already collapsing, it will get worst for sure, but we're used to the pain so will adapt easier as El Salvador. But the point is which countries will still be standing on a new world order. Not sure if Europe is heading in the right direction.

11 sats \ 1 reply \ @Butterfinger OP 17 Oct

Better to have both possibilities, but the outcome no one knows, time will tell.

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @justanumber 17 Oct

Yes, we don't really know the outcome and I agree having options is a good move.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @037447d9ca 17 Oct

Why don't you simply visit before making the decision?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Butterfinger OP 17 Oct

That's a great idea, those are my personal opinions having traveled in latin america a lot, europe and the us. But I still prefer mostly europe despite the so many problems there.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @000w2 17 Oct

Moving to another country is a great idea.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @stack_harder 17 Oct

i think if i was an og coiner who got btc from faucets and mining and amassed a fortune with no kyc, i would just roll out to a btc friendly place and go full bitcoin standard

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @justanumber 17 Oct

Can you expand more on what you envisage some of the disadvantages and disappointments might be, other than lack of infrastructure?

6 sats \ 4 replies \ @Butterfinger OP 17 Oct

Well in my personal view, growing up in latin american having traveled many countries I like Europe a lot, maybe because I am a nerd and life it's much more interesting and easier for me in Europe. Also european diversity of languages, cultures fascinates me. When I go to latin america, everything with quality costs so much and it's hard to find nerds to hang around and change techincal experiences.

5 sats \ 3 replies \ @justanumber 17 Oct

I am with you on much of what you say. I also love Europe very much. I have that option available to me, if I wish. Not knowing what might happen globally in the next few years, I decided to create more options for myself and my family. Like I said in another comment. I think it's very different for people. Most Latin Americans are so intrigued (and many confused) as to why westerners move to their countries.

5 sats \ 2 replies \ @Butterfinger OP 17 Oct

Exactly, if you go to Argentina or Brazil they don't understand what you're doing there if you come from Europe as many see it as a paradise which it is not.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @aljaz 18 Oct

I think many people who are not from Europe have the same impression of Europe as Europeans of Latam.

Sure Europe is beautiful in the summer, large parts of it are probably on avg much safer than Latam, but that is rapidly changing sadly. Then depending on where you are fall and winter are just a mindfuck. Having spent majority of my life around the Alps has given me a life long appreciation of nicer climates and seeing the sun all year around, not just between April and October.

On average infrastructure is better, but on the other hand things might just appear so because the nanny socialist states are all fucked, the "free healthcare" just means you'll wait 6months+ for everything and be taxed 50% for the privilege. There is no innovation, just stagnation. Everything is politics, half of the countries are on the brink of collapse, the other half is turning fascist. Major cities are overflow with immigrants who have no desire to integrate into society. You need a governments permission to fart. There is more employment laws than employees. Healthcare regulation is so horrible you can't even order sterilized water from abroad because its classified as controlled medication.

Europe as a continent is not bad, but EU(SSR) is becoming unbearable. You can live a cosy normie life if you bend your knee and spread your ass cheeks, but if you desire to live a life that is a bit more free you'll soon start to feel shackles on you.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @justanumber 18 Oct

Thank you! You put into words a lot of what I didn't have time to. When we move to new countries we are floating on the surface in a kind of honeymoon period. It's not until we have been there a while we start to really see other aspects. EU is looks on the romantic surface level to be operating as it used to but, as you say, the shackles are coming. I sometimes hesitate to say bc most countries have this honeymoon period. However, I sense the epic rugpull for residents and citizens of many highly developed countries is imminent.