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10 sats \ 22 replies \ @028559d218 OP 19 Oct 2024 \ parent \ on: Questions about Nov 5th: How does the new format work? AskSN
Thank you for your thoughts.
I believe that if Bitcoin is to become the MoE of the internet (over the next decade of course)... then these types of issues need to be worked out.
What is the place for custodial? The place for non-custodial? Where do 'cowboy credits' come in instead of actual lightning sats? Where do we draw the line between the 2?
And finally as with any engineered system, what is the most efficient way to use it?
The regulators don't like a 'custodial' way of sending and receiving value well ok... what is the simplest, most natural, and efficient way of doing it non-custodially?
As I explained in my comment above:
- for such system like SN is OK to use some custodial tokens to upvote things inside SN. These tokens can be bought with sats, no problem at all.
- what we do outside SN could be self-custodial.
But do not put together these 2 things: zaps and upvotes.
There's no need to be at maximum paranoia with "let's make everything self-custodial".
Some level of custody is OK and sometimes beneficial, being used a decoy. But seems that nowadays few people understand what is to use a decoy...
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I'm not trading my sats for a ******* token.
Sats are proof-of-work and scarce. Tokens are not.
That is the entire problem with fiat and crypto it's scams all the way up and down.
I guess we could say 'ok you buy a token with a sat then give the token to them so that they could redeem a sat with it'...
But WtF it's like recreating a stablecoin where a token now equals a sat - redeem the sats with the token...
I don't want to go down this road and frankly I think it's counterproductive.
To me the magic of SN is a sat is a sat no matter what.
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You get it wrong. We are not talking to buy shitcoins here.
We are talking about playing a game, a ranking game with up/downvotes that are using tokens bought with sats.
Some kind of ecash tokens.
If you want to use SN only with your external node with real sats, zapping 1 sats around, go ahead, but soon you will remember my words, that method si not feasible for this kind of game it is SN.
Yes, P2P payments, self-custodied, for things in your real life are OK and I encourage them, but not on SN system.
To me the magic of SN is a sat is a sat no matter what.
You are again wrong. It was never a sat. Was just a conversion that gives you the impression it was a sat. But inside SN, was not a real LN payment routed over the whole LN graph. Was a real sat ONLY when you withdraw it to an external wallet. Inside SN was always a token.
Please attach your real LN node to SN as external wallet and let's talk again in 2 months.
@remindme in 2 months
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hey @028559d218 how is going your p2p zaps? Did you already used an external wallet to SN?
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I use a lightning address to receive... and i can send directly by paying invoices.
Is that what you mean?
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No, use p2p zaps with a real own LN node and let me see in few months that you can still want to use it as a direct "source" of p2p zaps.
My point is that SN method is not the right one, in this moment of LN evolving. Is toooo early and most of users are not well prepared and not well knowleagable to manage properly a self-custodial LN node. They mostly are WoS users LOL
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I don't... understand.
I use my own node connected to Zeus.
Even if someone isn't connected to their own node... Zeus runs a lightning address where you can receive sats sent to the address. Redeem them each day when you open the Zeus app...
What am I missing? Won't this work for Stacker users?
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The migration to fully p2p zaps was postponed after Jan 3rd
Let's talk again in Feb 2025 about this.
I see zapping and lightning... as the 'bitcoin economy' in its infancy.
Wasn't hashcash ultimately designed to help prevent spam in forum posts?
Hash a sha-256 output... to 'buy' the right to ultimately post and consume someone's time and energy?
And if this hashing/proof-of-work can work for forum posts, why not goods and services, products, media products, podcasts, intellectual property, music, multi-media, basically everything bought and sold on the internet?
I'm asking myself - where does all this lead to? What is the ultimate long-term future of zapping? It's not to earn Cowboy Credits. It's to incentivize value and value transfer on the internet. A better 'customer experience' where stackers (in this case) are the 'customers' of the future Bitcoin economy.
If zapping can work on Stacker News in a sustainable way then it can work everywhere on the internet and that's why I think it's so important.
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There are technical limitations of LN and BTC that until now we do not have a solution.
Don't be so paranoic and try to understand how SN system works.
We are talking exclusively about how to use SN system of upvoting posts not about how to send p2p sats.
Are two different things.
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May I ask... which technical limitations are you speaking of?
?
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dust limit
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Doesn't lightning help mitigate this?
There are not only sats but in Lightning...
Millisats?
Bitcoin is, for me at least, a risk-assessed form of money.
No engineered system, including Bitcoin, is perfect. No question about that.
So when I ask myself, whether custodying UTXOs or sending and receiving via a lightning channel, what is the future? what does all this lead to? What are the risks or risk-factors of Bitcoin... and what is the long-term value of Bitcoin?
What is its future. And I think the future is sound money on the internet.
Then of course that 'sound money' on the internet in the long term has to unlock better transactions, better businesses, and more value for the people that use it. A better user experience than fiat money beyond just Number-Go-Up. That means zaps, lightning, Nostr, podcasts purchased by the minute with zaps... blog posts and articles, and a circular Zap and lightning economy that incentivizes value and the transfer of value.
Yes I'm overthinking it but I want to think about the Bitcoin 5 or 10 years from now, not the bitcoin today or literally tomorrow which doesn't tell us much.
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