Questions about Nov 5th: How does the new format work? \ stacker news ~AskSN

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Questions about Nov 5th: How does the new format work?

73 sats \ 31 comments \ @028559d218 19 Oct 2024 AskSN

So right now... I have my default wallet balance set to... 0 sats. So all the sats are withdrawn to a lightning address right away fair enough.

So I have a 'balance' of 0 sats. So when I comment on a post, it says the 'post' is free. Yet the post is silent or 'not visible' like it should be normally.

When i 'zap' another user it automatically pops up with a QR code. I 'scan' the QR code with my mobile app, connected to my LND node, and from there I can directly 'zap' the other user.

But when I 'comment' on a post there is no QR code. And no QR no sats no visibility... nothing is 'free' why does it say 'free'? And since all the sats will be 'non-custodial' in November then my sat balance on SN will be zero in the future? If it's zero then why don't I get a QR code when I comment? What's the actual point of 'cowboy credits'? (Are you serious?)

Another important question... is there a way to 'pool' sats to ultimately be withdrawn to a LN address? The fees are smaller on larger numbers of sats... and higher (2.5%) on very small numbers, like <100 sats.

Pooling them for a bit before they are 'withdrawn' to me directly would reduce the fees somewhat. Will I have a 'balance' on SN in the future or do all sats have to be sent to me immediately?

In addition right now, under 'wallet settings' and connecting a lightning wallet I have set the sat balance to zero. But it doesn't say zero it says something like 11 sats to keep as a balance? Why the discrepancy and will this exist in the future?

Thank you!

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0 sats \ 25 replies \ @DarthCoin 19 Oct 2024

You will have 2 options: use cowboy credits (CC) or sats from your external wallet. The balance displayed will be only for your CCs, due to the restriction that SN cannot read fully your external wallet balance.

You can use CCs to upvote/zap but you cannot withdraw them. some kind of shitcoins inside SN game. You can buy them from SN depositing sats to a certain LN invoice.

Yes, you are right, all that friction of zapping back and forth posts and comments will COST YOU FEES because are real LN payments. And not just that, but it can bring you force closed channels, low liquidity, failed payments etc because not all stackers will use proper nodes, but all kind of shity wallets that will create a nightmare in all this zapping each otehrs.

I always suggest to zap wisely, only if is necessary and yes, because you are saving fees.

I personally will stick with the old cowboy credits. Not because I do not want self-custody... oh I really want it, but in this case is NOT necessary. I run several LN nodes, I could easily link many wallets. But I do not want to pass that friction of many zaps onto my own node.

Also connecting another custodial wallet at first glance, it could sound that is fixing a problem, but is not. You are just passing the dead cat to another door. And is not that self-custody that SN wants you to believe it is. And will still be fees involved, sometimes even more because you cannot control the fees of a custodial account.

My warning: stackers should think twice about these changes and adapt accordingly.

0 sats \ 24 replies \ @028559d218 OP 19 Oct 2024

The implementation of 'receiving' I'm using right now, now that i've set it up... uses the LN address. However for a 100 sat deposit it's a 2.5% fee.

It's even higher for smaller transactions (like 10 sats). This is a significant loss of efficiency relative to the 'old' method of having a SN balance and then sending and receiving directly for almost nothing. When I use the QR method and send it's ok. But having it sent to a lightning address is less efficient (at least with Zeus).

What would you recommend? (by the way I have been reading your guides when I have time and they are excellent thank you)

0 sats \ 23 replies \ @DarthCoin 19 Oct 2024

What would you recommend?

What I was screaming out loud and recommend to SN was to separate the zaps (with real sats) from upvotes (cowboy credits).

I really don't know how will be after 5th of Nov. I personally didn't attached any external wallet (yet), because:

I like to use cowboy credits inside SN for upvotes, not sats
I like to use real sats ONLY when I really want to zap somebody with real sats, but as a separate thing, not as the same lightning bolt icon.

I still stand my ground and say: SN games must be played with cowboy credits not with real sats.

10 sats \ 22 replies \ @028559d218 OP 19 Oct 2024

Thank you for your thoughts.

I believe that if Bitcoin is to become the MoE of the internet (over the next decade of course)... then these types of issues need to be worked out.

What is the place for custodial? The place for non-custodial? Where do 'cowboy credits' come in instead of actual lightning sats? Where do we draw the line between the 2?

And finally as with any engineered system, what is the most efficient way to use it? The regulators don't like a 'custodial' way of sending and receiving value well ok... what is the simplest, most natural, and efficient way of doing it non-custodially?

0 sats \ 21 replies \ @DarthCoin 19 Oct 2024

As I explained in my comment above:

for such system like SN is OK to use some custodial tokens to upvote things inside SN. These tokens can be bought with sats, no problem at all.
what we do outside SN could be self-custodial.

But do not put together these 2 things: zaps and upvotes.

There's no need to be at maximum paranoia with "let's make everything self-custodial". Some level of custody is OK and sometimes beneficial, being used a decoy. But seems that nowadays few people understand what is to use a decoy...

0 sats \ 20 replies \ @028559d218 OP 19 Oct 2024

I'm not trading my sats for a ******* token. Sats are proof-of-work and scarce. Tokens are not. That is the entire problem with fiat and crypto it's scams all the way up and down.

I guess we could say 'ok you buy a token with a sat then give the token to them so that they could redeem a sat with it'...

But WtF it's like recreating a stablecoin where a token now equals a sat - redeem the sats with the token... I don't want to go down this road and frankly I think it's counterproductive. To me the magic of SN is a sat is a sat no matter what.

0 sats \ 19 replies \ @DarthCoin 19 Oct 2024

You get it wrong. We are not talking to buy shitcoins here. We are talking about playing a game, a ranking game with up/downvotes that are using tokens bought with sats. Some kind of ecash tokens.

If you want to use SN only with your external node with real sats, zapping 1 sats around, go ahead, but soon you will remember my words, that method si not feasible for this kind of game it is SN.

Yes, P2P payments, self-custodied, for things in your real life are OK and I encourage them, but not on SN system.

To me the magic of SN is a sat is a sat no matter what.

You are again wrong. It was never a sat. Was just a conversion that gives you the impression it was a sat. But inside SN, was not a real LN payment routed over the whole LN graph. Was a real sat ONLY when you withdraw it to an external wallet. Inside SN was always a token.

Please attach your real LN node to SN as external wallet and let's talk again in 2 months.

@remindme in 2 months

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @DarthCoin 19 Dec 2024

hey @028559d218 how is going your p2p zaps? Did you already used an external wallet to SN?

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0 sats \ 11 replies \ @028559d218 OP 19 Oct 2024

I see zapping and lightning... as the 'bitcoin economy' in its infancy. Wasn't hashcash ultimately designed to help prevent spam in forum posts? Hash a sha-256 output... to 'buy' the right to ultimately post and consume someone's time and energy?

And if this hashing/proof-of-work can work for forum posts, why not goods and services, products, media products, podcasts, intellectual property, music, multi-media, basically everything bought and sold on the internet?

I'm asking myself - where does all this lead to? What is the ultimate long-term future of zapping? It's not to earn Cowboy Credits. It's to incentivize value and value transfer on the internet. A better 'customer experience' where stackers (in this case) are the 'customers' of the future Bitcoin economy.

If zapping can work on Stacker News in a sustainable way then it can work everywhere on the internet and that's why I think it's so important.

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0 sats \ 4 replies \ @rebel_nomad 19 Oct 2024

I'm sure that it can't be the plan that we'll have to pay like that for each and every comment!

That would kill SN off instantly, so I guess if there will be a charge for comments that will be possible in a seamless way, probably just keeping some "sats equivalent" in the wallet here?

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @028559d218 OP 19 Oct 2024

I... don't think so. But I don't know. If its 1 sat to post a reply... then where does that sat come from? My understanding is that full-custodial means SN itself has zero sats. So we have to send them, for every comment.

And then every post, for 100 sats, is the same way. But why doesn't the QR code show up?

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @rebel_nomad 19 Oct 2024

As I understand it sats in the wallet on SN itself will simply be regarded as these "points", so if your wallet is all empty you'll simply fund it with a few hundred for comments and so on?

And if you earn you spend that as you go, withdrawing above a certain limit?

If every single 1 sat event goes through our own wallets then there will be fees with that, and if we get a fee spike activity would fall off a cliff...

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 OP 19 Oct 2024

I don't see how there would be a fee spike? Because it's lightning. I don't think fees change much just because there is more 'usage'.

Furthermore... I don't think we can 'fund' wallets with sats anymore after Nov 5th. SN has to be completely non-custodial. They cannot 'hold our sats' for us the way I understand it.

Also my understanding is that our 'sat' balance will be and will always be effectively zero. SN cannot hold our sats for us... as that would be 'custodial'.

But then how do we deposit sats or get a QR code to spend sats... when we want to post?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @rebel_nomad 19 Oct 2024

Actually I don't know, all I know is that I'll be all in on the ride!

So I wrote this: #730644

These next weeks are a great opportunity to learn for us all...!