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0 sats \ 25 replies \ @DarthCoin 19 Oct 2024 \ on: Questions about Nov 5th: How does the new format work? AskSN
You will have 2 options: use cowboy credits (CC) or sats from your external wallet.
The balance displayed will be only for your CCs, due to the restriction that SN cannot read fully your external wallet balance.
You can use CCs to upvote/zap but you cannot withdraw them. some kind of shitcoins inside SN game. You can buy them from SN depositing sats to a certain LN invoice.
Yes, you are right, all that friction of zapping back and forth posts and comments will COST YOU FEES because are real LN payments. And not just that, but it can bring you force closed channels, low liquidity, failed payments etc because not all stackers will use proper nodes, but all kind of shity wallets that will create a nightmare in all this zapping each otehrs.
I always suggest to zap wisely, only if is necessary and yes, because you are saving fees.
I personally will stick with the old cowboy credits.
Not because I do not want self-custody... oh I really want it, but in this case is NOT necessary. I run several LN nodes, I could easily link many wallets. But I do not want to pass that friction of many zaps onto my own node.
Also connecting another custodial wallet at first glance, it could sound that is fixing a problem, but is not. You are just passing the dead cat to another door. And is not that self-custody that SN wants you to believe it is. And will still be fees involved, sometimes even more because you cannot control the fees of a custodial account.
My warning: stackers should think twice about these changes and adapt accordingly.
The implementation of 'receiving' I'm using right now, now that i've set it up...
uses the LN address. However for a 100 sat deposit it's a 2.5% fee.
It's even higher for smaller transactions (like 10 sats). This is a significant loss of efficiency relative to the 'old' method of having a SN balance and then sending and receiving directly for almost nothing. When I use the QR method and send it's ok. But having it sent to a lightning address is less efficient (at least with Zeus).
What would you recommend? (by the way I have been reading your guides when I have time and they are excellent thank you)
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What would you recommend?
What I was screaming out loud and recommend to SN was to separate the zaps (with real sats) from upvotes (cowboy credits).
I really don't know how will be after 5th of Nov.
I personally didn't attached any external wallet (yet), because:
- I like to use cowboy credits inside SN for upvotes, not sats
- I like to use real sats ONLY when I really want to zap somebody with real sats, but as a separate thing, not as the same lightning bolt icon.
I still stand my ground and say: SN games must be played with cowboy credits not with real sats.
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Thank you for your thoughts.
I believe that if Bitcoin is to become the MoE of the internet (over the next decade of course)... then these types of issues need to be worked out.
What is the place for custodial? The place for non-custodial? Where do 'cowboy credits' come in instead of actual lightning sats? Where do we draw the line between the 2?
And finally as with any engineered system, what is the most efficient way to use it?
The regulators don't like a 'custodial' way of sending and receiving value well ok... what is the simplest, most natural, and efficient way of doing it non-custodially?
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As I explained in my comment above:
- for such system like SN is OK to use some custodial tokens to upvote things inside SN. These tokens can be bought with sats, no problem at all.
- what we do outside SN could be self-custodial.
But do not put together these 2 things: zaps and upvotes.
There's no need to be at maximum paranoia with "let's make everything self-custodial".
Some level of custody is OK and sometimes beneficial, being used a decoy. But seems that nowadays few people understand what is to use a decoy...
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I'm not trading my sats for a ******* token.
Sats are proof-of-work and scarce. Tokens are not.
That is the entire problem with fiat and crypto it's scams all the way up and down.
I guess we could say 'ok you buy a token with a sat then give the token to them so that they could redeem a sat with it'...
But WtF it's like recreating a stablecoin where a token now equals a sat - redeem the sats with the token...
I don't want to go down this road and frankly I think it's counterproductive.
To me the magic of SN is a sat is a sat no matter what.
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You get it wrong. We are not talking to buy shitcoins here.
We are talking about playing a game, a ranking game with up/downvotes that are using tokens bought with sats.
Some kind of ecash tokens.
If you want to use SN only with your external node with real sats, zapping 1 sats around, go ahead, but soon you will remember my words, that method si not feasible for this kind of game it is SN.
Yes, P2P payments, self-custodied, for things in your real life are OK and I encourage them, but not on SN system.
To me the magic of SN is a sat is a sat no matter what.
You are again wrong. It was never a sat. Was just a conversion that gives you the impression it was a sat. But inside SN, was not a real LN payment routed over the whole LN graph. Was a real sat ONLY when you withdraw it to an external wallet. Inside SN was always a token.
Please attach your real LN node to SN as external wallet and let's talk again in 2 months.
@remindme in 2 months
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hey @028559d218 how is going your p2p zaps? Did you already used an external wallet to SN?
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I use a lightning address to receive... and i can send directly by paying invoices.
Is that what you mean?
I see zapping and lightning... as the 'bitcoin economy' in its infancy.
Wasn't hashcash ultimately designed to help prevent spam in forum posts?
Hash a sha-256 output... to 'buy' the right to ultimately post and consume someone's time and energy?
And if this hashing/proof-of-work can work for forum posts, why not goods and services, products, media products, podcasts, intellectual property, music, multi-media, basically everything bought and sold on the internet?
I'm asking myself - where does all this lead to? What is the ultimate long-term future of zapping? It's not to earn Cowboy Credits. It's to incentivize value and value transfer on the internet. A better 'customer experience' where stackers (in this case) are the 'customers' of the future Bitcoin economy.
If zapping can work on Stacker News in a sustainable way then it can work everywhere on the internet and that's why I think it's so important.
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There are technical limitations of LN and BTC that until now we do not have a solution.
Don't be so paranoic and try to understand how SN system works.
We are talking exclusively about how to use SN system of upvoting posts not about how to send p2p sats.
Are two different things.