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HODLing is waiting. It's watching countless people, including friends and family go about their lives, not knowing anything about Bitcoin. it's not discussing Bitcoin with the large majority of friends or family (especially family) and then when 'crypto' does indirectly get brought up (say through a book in your house or something on the news...)
Family members who are otherwise smart and educated are like 'ya a lot of people lost money on that'. And you don't say anything, you can't say anything.
And then there are a few people you let into your world at least a little bit... the occasional friend, maybe even someone you work with and the topic of investing and markets comes up, and you mention Bitcoin as something that's interesting...
And still the overwhelming response from 'normies' - and these are smart, educated people - is to laugh, roll their eyes, or just look confused.
Let me say that again, the vast majority of people I've mentioned Bitcoin to just laugh, roll their eyes, or look confused. One even got hostile ("I don't do that" he said. As if I asked him if he sold drugs.)
  • It's very rare when you come across someone open-minded enough to at least have intellectual curiosity, to be open enough to something they haven't experienced or don't yet know.
And then there's the BS. The endless BS about worthless tokens, most of them unregistered securities, that people think are 'crypto'. The news stories about pig butchering where some rando sends some other rando 10s of thousands in stablecoins... to get rich quick... and then realizes ('all of a sudden') that it's a scam. Shocking I know. Of course had they 'made money' with their crypto token (which didn't actually exist) they wouldn't have said anything...
"But how are you supposed to make money in crypto?" they say. And then you are reminded that Human greed and stupidity have no end. But they have to end eventually, you think and somehow...
There are the news stories.
The news, especially financial news, doesn't really mention Bitcoin at all except to describe either scams, FTX, or short-term price action:
"When does it hit this price" "when does it die" "here's how much you would have made" "here's what Elon thinks " and so on...
It's overwhelmingly bull**** and says nothing about the value, tradeoffs, or risk-management of holding Bitcoin. Types of self-custody, how to self-custody, why Bitcoin is different, or even what Bitcoin could be in the future. A means of saving, an alternative to credit cards, a hedge to government-credit risk... 402 payments on the internet.
Yes I know IN THE BITCOIN BUBBLE we talk about these things all the time but normies DO NOT. I would wager that 'most people' have no idea ALL OF THIS is going on. It's a revolution and most, if not the vast majority of people are like "what"?
It's paying in fiat and wanting to pay in Bitcoin but... you can't. At least yet. It's the lightning wallets that no-one else seems to have - and yes ask your Uber driver if they have a "lightning wallet". When you find one who has one... let me know because I haven't yet.
It's just all noise.
A few years ago I would have looked at a nice car (and there are nice cars out there) and wanted one. Now it's just... not that important. I would much rather people get Bitcoin and start to use it for payments, keep it for savings, embrace lightning... so we can build something and make the world a better place.
Bitcoin is a value proposition, it's value added that fiat is... probably not. And people will eventually flock to that value.
But apparently... it's not today. So I HODL sit and wait and it sucks.
In the meantime I'm proud of my little Toyota, a very modest little car it has so much class. And I'm waiting on a better world. I'm just glad Stacker News is here in the meantime to know I'm not alone.
It makes the very slow progress more tolerable, less painful and one day, when everyone gets Bitcoin our dreams will come to fruition and the world will be a better place.
Examples follow examples.
So,
Be the example for the normies. Just don't shy to show them that you had been increasing your purchasing power while all of them have been losing it.
Until you show them the way, they're stray.
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I think Bitcoin works from first principles. It requires energy to make. It's decentralized. It's not based on 'trust'... it is designed to be openly verified. Also there is only so much of it.
Getting people to care about any of those things, much less do the work in studying Bitcoin for 100 hours is really difficult. They don't need to read programming books (I don't) just be intellectually curious enough and open-minded enough.
And at the end of the day what you're telling someone is... hey this is a great thing to save in. It would be a good idea to save any excess cash, even a small amount, in it for the next 10 years. It is a long-terms savings tool over the next decade maybe.
And what you're essentially telling people is... it's going to suck. There is no shortcut PoW takes hard work over a sustained time period and that's what Bitcoin is. Some folks, even if you get that far don't want to hear that even if it's true.
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And at the end of the day what you're telling someone is...
I think you didn't get it. Let me explain it again.
No need to tell anyone, just show how Bitcoin is the best money of all times.
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Stay humble, keep on stacking. We are early.
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Thank you, I hope so. Either we are unbelievably early to a revolution. Or we are waiting on something that will never happen. I hope it's the former honestly.
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Everything about this photo, including the table, and blinds, and smiles... even the ******* silverware is just painful. I guess I should feel thankful but it's a really weird position to be in.
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even the ******* silverware
what is that ****** ?
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it's the silverware that reminds me of my in-laws. lol they are nice people, and they are family, but for the most part live lives that are completely scripted.
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so you avoid to say the word fucking ? Why people are censoring themselves? Is the statist propaganda so deep in people's brains?
Other than 1 or 2 people, I don't talk to family about crypto. I'm waiting on a better world and that is not driven by price or exchange-rate. Something my family, unfortunately would not really understand.
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I don’t think it sucks. Watching your purchasing power evaporate and feeling you need to become your own personal hedge fund manager to prevent it sucks. Saving in bitcoin is great.
If people don’t get it. They don’t get it.
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Most people, that is outside of the Bitcoin bubble, if I mentioned Bitcoin think I'm either a) a scammer or b) going to get scammed.
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Most people are floaters. It's just how it is.
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I hear ya. All you can do is try to explain to them what you know based on your research. If they don’t want to listen, they don’t want to listen.
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I try with people who I know well, start to trust, and who I think need (or will need) hard money to save in.
People who are quality people who have a lot to offer the world. Then we take the conversation from there.
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Exactly
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hodling is zen
it is the nothingness described above and embraced for its own sake
hodling is death to your ego
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this is interesting thank you
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nym 25 Oct
Yes, this is the mindset.
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44 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT 24 Oct
As long as your friends and family know you as "the bitcoin guy" all you need to do is be there when the they ask. That's all you can do really.
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You are right. It would be good to be there for the family in this way.
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Chin up, friend.
It helps to learn how to talk about bitcoin in a way that the so-called normies will actually listen.
My favorite opener is:
"Bitcoin is a decentralized ledger that no one controls, anyone can write on, and yet somehow everyone trusts. And it's been operating for 16 years without any single entity in control of it."
Usually the next question is one of:
  • "So what? Why do we need that?" Which lets you dive into the monetary economics of why we need Bitcoin.
  • "How does Bitcoin do that?" Which lets you dive into proof-of-work and bitcoin's technical innovations
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I mentioned Bitcoin to someone I work with, someone I really respect. And they were like... "but what happens when the central computer gets hacked" "what happens when the government shuts it down" "someone could just make more"
They wouldn't have been responsive to anything I said. And there are lots of people like this.
On a positive note, another person I spoke with recently... he was open to it. Was genuinely curious. Didn't know anything about it, and didn't have a computer-background but at least wasn't outright dismissive. I would like to think that eventually these people are the future.
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Next time send them these links:
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thank you
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I should add, a very important tactic is to move the conversation away from “price”, “investment”, or “returns”. Focus on the what and the why of bitcoin and don’t let them move the conversation into a way to make money
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See that's the kicker. That's what a lot (most?) people are interested in though. Or they ask ok 'how much is one' and they think they have to buy a whole one.
They are much less open to the idea of buying or acquiring 'sats'. Sats at any price, acquired with a long term horizion, especially at regular intervals makes the most sense but it's very hard to get people 'there'..
I have had very limited success, and this is with smart, educated people.
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I have no time to talk to such small minded people, doesn’t matter how “smart” or “educated” they are.
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I, too, am puzzled by the fact people are not interested in stacking sats.
I have a friend who I explained Bitcoin to over a year ago and he's still only interested in trading it or investing for a quick gain.
Since the time I introduced him to Bitcoin, the fiat price has increased by 2.5x, and yet he hasn't stacked a single sat or done anything at all related to bitcoin.
I don't know what's on his mind.
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i've run into similar situations
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100 sats \ 1 reply \ @Manikese 25 Oct
Good write up. I don’t mind hodling. For me, spending or sending people money (bitcoin) is still hodling. The only rule I have is to never trade my bitcoin for fiat.
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100% feel exactly the same way Short of an emergency (medical bill) or extremely pressing issue, Bitcoin -> Fiat is a scam. If I can pay for the same service in Btc I will instead. My 2 sats
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i remember a while back something bitcoin came up and my best friend said, and i quote 'that shits dead bro'
he doesn't know I've been dca-ing for like 5 years now and have become radicalised against the government on nostr and stacker news lol
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It's like being a Catholic, you have to take your cross and carry it on everyday.
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21 sats \ 1 reply \ @BeeAye 25 Oct
you speak words that resonate with me 🤙
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find meetups, make a meetup, build the network u want to live in.
educating about bitcoin and topics of high importance that have been corrupted takes a lot of effort. a lot of initial input is required, like a long one-on-one session or a high signal-to-noise ratio party. otherwise it's like shooting squirrels in the dark.
i now like the roundabout way of bringing up bitcoin, starting with what people care about, and then after demonstrating that i am a deep thinker, bring up bitcoin.
i will not shut up after someone starts listening.
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I don't really want to go to in-person meetups. And in my opinion Bitcoiners shouldn't have to at this point.
As far as the network goes, I have sats to spend in day-to-day life and yet there are... so few places to spend them. I check BTCmap and update it accordingly. My favorite meme is that meme with Morpheus and Neo and that describes how I feel
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a meetup is made up of 2 or more people. if u have at least one other bitcoiner, u can start sending sats to each other for various things.
for me it's rent, beer, meat.
order a beef box or maple syrup or tallow online if u cannot spend local.
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Thank you I'll look into it. I'm always interested in legitimate, Bitcoin small businesses if they're trying to provide a good product to plebs
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Coffee beans from El Salvador!!
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Lol I'm familiar ;)
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I know how it feels but if it sucks. It sucks only a few times a month.
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Yup. It's good to come to stacker news then. Always something interesting going on.
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Or you can introduce Bitrefill and The Bitcoin Company to them. I feel that some people will turn around when they see that BTC is not a scam but the best money they can use in their everyday lives
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thank you
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I wish I was still a holder
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well i mean some people enjoy the thrill of taking their private keys out on the high seas. going fishing with them, waterskiing etc
  • quite thrilling i've heard
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Some people is not ready to be helped.
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Very relatable. One of the tactics that I bring up when talking to people about Bitcoin or money more generally, include the "properties of money". Money is frequently described as the most saleable good. The history of money, as I have learned reading several books on the subject, experimented with many different goods: Salt, Yap stones, cowry shells, tobacco, grain, cattle, glass beads, silver, gold, gold backed IOUs, fiat, Bitcoin, and so on. Each of these mediums of exchange and stores of value have properties that can be weighed.
If someone dismisses Bitcoin as a collector's item like baseball cards or Beanie Babies (yes, I have heard these comparisons), I try to engage that person by testing these collectibles for their properties, and of course these collector's items do not look good in comparison to other forms of money.
One counter argument that I have frequently heard against Bitcoin is that it is not "backed by anything". Whereas fiat (USD) is backed by the U.S. Government. This weighs the sovereignty property above all else. We know that Bitcoin is secured by one of the world's largest networks, so it is "backed" by energy and unbreakable cryptography. Additionally, government sovereignty of money does not apply to gold which is still used today as a settlement layer among the largest global financial institutions.
One of the major challenges is that we have all been so deeply indoctrinated on the fiat standard that considering other standards challenges and disrupts our world view. Bitcoin, and the study of hard money, exposes the fraud we have all been economically and mentally bound by. I, for one, would rather exist with uncomfortable truth than be enslaved by comfortable lies.
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It's interesting you mentioned government and government-issued currency... I am not an anarchist and think there is obviously a role for government in the world. Clean water, functional roads and bridges, a national army, police etc...
However what's really clear (and also unfortunate) is the debt and deficits countries are running, especially in the US. Although people don't want to talk about it the debt-load and subsequent interest payments will continue to increase over the next 10 years... and the same is true all over Western Europe. All the large 'modern' governments are running huge deficits and that would be ok... if it weren't for the accompanying interest payments. It's like paying off one credit card with another.
I just don't know how this plays out in the next 10 years. My point being that if the government is so indebted and borrowing to make interest payments at nearly full employment... what good is the money they issue? It's a paper promise and an IOU is only good as the creditworthiness of the issuer. Major politicians don't want to even talk about it... and when someone can hold Bitcoin why even hold paper money at all?
As far as gold goes there will always be a place for it it has been around for so long. But you're right the transactability isn't good and digital mediums almost always outperform analogue ones.
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Money has been transacted with for far longer than Gov't issued money. In almost all cases, it was initially used as a store of value. Exchanged in ceremonial events like weddings, births, battle victories, or deaths. The money would change to something else when technology came along and disrupted it. E.g., Glass beads in Africa were massively debased when Europeans brought them in by the crate and loaded up their cargo boats with ivory, gold, and slaves which they were able to trade for the beads. It took decades before the locals understood what had happened. In this pessimistic regard, not much has changed.
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That's a really good point... I had never thought about it that way
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That's the beauty of hodling you can opt-out at any time and enjoy short-term pleasures and live with the regret later lol
Normies don't want a solution to their problems, they just want to complain, many of us started out as normies but were motivated to take action and accountability, put in the time and effort and we're now willing to walk the walk
Personally hodling doesn't suck as much as what I was doing before buying index funds, stonks and trying to save that sucks balls
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What got me into Bitcoin was energy. I work with large equipment (electrical, hydraulic, pneumatic etc) and learning about this 'network powered by energy' was the thing that did it for me.
I just... felt attracted to it immediately. To this day I still equate electricity with 'digital capital' and it's what makes Bitcoin special imo. It wasn't even a savings or money thing either... just a 'way to preserve energy' like the engineered systems at work.
But it's almost impossible to explain that to a 'normie' who hasn't had the professional exposure to stuff like that. Somewhere along the way I just fell down the RH and the hours fly by
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For me it depends on the day. Like most things I am doing. Some days are hard. I feel so alone. Other days I am so grateful to be early..I definitely feel the weight of it all today.
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Some days are like that. I've learned not to look for company in the context of money. SN is great, but my social time is mostly about family and enjoying the anonymous crowds of public spaces.
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I am starting to realize I can get my social time that way also. Just lurking amongst "normal" people.
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I like a cup of coffee at a cafe (or starbucks if that's all there is) while reading Stacker News.
American coffee is ok... but I like the way Europeans do leisure and coffee. South America too
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Same Sir Dave same here. Hodl on
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What else can we do? 🤷‍♂️
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @jgbtc 25 Oct
I agree with all of that except the "it sucks" part. It's great. Learning to be patient makes life better.
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You know what you are right. It's something I should definitely work on. Having said that there is a lot of bs out there that the market has to sort out and it moves really slowly
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Well said. Don't forget that to make bitcoin accepted as a payment, we shall start asking merchants to do so. You're right, not finding many of them is discouraging, but the presupposition of hodling is not helping with that at all. Sats shall flow into the economy.
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I agree completely. I go out of my way to spend sats, at least for small items, that are at least tangentially connected to things I'm interested in. I look for these places there just... aren't many yet.
Lol I remember one bar I went to, fairly recently actually, specifically because 'the map' said they took them. Takes bitcoin lightning and on-chain...
Well the employee couldn't be bothered to find, much less charge up, the iPad that the manager had set out to take lightning payments! She was like 'it doesn't work. It's not charged.'
I came back an hour later expecting it might be charged enough to take one payment...
'It's still not charged' she said. She was 'too busy' to charge it (she said). I was the only person in there. So she's like 'will that be cash or card'? I was hungry so picked out a sandwich and left.
I have had other experiences like this too.
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You Bitcoin maxi's will never get it until Bitcoin hits 0. It's not perfect, it's not flawless and it will never replace fiat unless the majority of the world believes the benefits of using it outweigh the benefits of fiat. Sorry to burst your bubble here, I'm just a realist. Bitcoin has work to do, and unfortunately with how you maxi's act by thinking it's already perfect and flawless, that will most likely never happen especially on layer one, and that's where 95% of the issues are.
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It's not perfect. It's nowhere near flawless. But I remember, quite vividly as a matter of fact, the Starbucks I paid 5$ for that was only 3$ just a few years ago and it's like...
Yes BTC isn't perfect but it's good enough and it's the best, PoW decentralized blockchain. I live in the real world, and to the extent Bitcoin/any blockchain is adopted for real-world payments, spending and saving Bitcoin is far, far ahead of anything else. Nothing else comes even remotely close.
I'm sorry
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The issue is the large majority of the world does not give a fuck about it being decentralized. Nor do they care about anonymity. They will take one look at the fact it costs money to transact (50 cents may be small to you but to others especially those in poverty it's a turn off, and lightning still has SOME fee, even one sat is too much) and say "why would I pay to transact this when I can pay in fiat for free?" They'll also say in regards to layer one, "why would i want to wait an unspecificed amount of time hoping my tx is confirmed when i can transact in fiat instantly?"
Do you get it now?
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No you are incorrect sorry. Nothing in the world is free. The money you keep in the bank... it is not free either. I moved money from my savings account to checking account and the bank charged me 30$ to do it. I was only allowed to make 4 transactions a quarter of this kind... and the 5th was 30$.
After that I said screw this and went all in on Bitcoin. Take a trip to your local grocery store, take one look at the prices compared to 3-4 years ago and it's obvious why we need Bitcoin. Government money, even the Dollar which is probably the best one, is just a promise and a piece of paper.
With regard to transaction fees, especially on lightning, and with regard to waiting times... nothing in the world is free and nothing in the world is perfect.
Bitcoin just happens to be undervalued as the least dirty shirt, in a world of dirty shirts and I believe eventually the world will figure that out.
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LOL WHAT BANK ARE YOU USING?!
I've had bank accounts with numerous banks both physical banks like fifth third, Huntington, independent, ect, and online bank accounts like chime, varo, Moneylion, ect. If your bank is still charging you to move money between your own accounts you are getting flat out robbed. No ifs ands or butts. No physical banks even charge you to do that, that I know of, so your story smells fishy.
Also, almost every bank doesn't even charge overdraft fees anymore, and 95% of online banks will front you money as long as you have direct deposit set up into that account without charging you a fee or interest. Get with the times.
Seriously though, if you're being charged to transfer $ between your own accounts and theyre limiting how many times you can do it, switch banks ASAP. I recommend one of the online banks like Moneylion or chime. Both are extremely reputable, offer amazing customer service (Moneylion has 24/7 customer service), and will not charge you a dime to move money, even to an account at another bank! It would just take a day or two before it arrived.
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If you aren't a fan of Bitcoin then just... don't use it. As a matter of fact, I am extremely open to criticism, especially about Bitcoin as it's not perfect. It's an imperfect solution for an imperfect world.
But the fact that you're here, posting up sats, on a website designed around Bitcoin, as people send and receive sats to each other... says a lot sorry.
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I've been here since the early days three or so years ago. Check my profile. I actually am a fan of Bitcoin, I just want it to be better in all forms and I just see it without blinders on, here in reality. And in reality there is almost no chance of it becoming universally adopted by a large majority of the world for every day transactional use to pay for goods and services. It's the truth.
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I think saying there's 'no way' something can happen... means it's impossible. Nothing is impossible. Unlikely sure, but not impossible otherwise a possibility is 0%
I think there are some misnomers here, and they're worth pointing out even if some disagree with me.
For example, you said 'large majority of the world'. And I would agree. The vast majority of the world's wealth is in Western countries, plus Japan and a little BRICs.
But mostly Western countries.
I also think that Bitcoin being a bank account for everyone, from billionaire to peasant is unrealistic. The target audience or market, if you will, is people with at least 500$ in a bank account. Which rules out the vast majority of India and even parts of South America for example.
Add to this people who, for whatever reason, don't use smartphones and electronics or digital banking, and that number is even smaller.
Ultimately Bitcoin is targeting people with at least 500$ of assets to save, can use a basic smartphone, and have access to basic infrastructure (power, electricity, civil infrastructure etc). I think that is much more realistic.
However it's still a MASSIVE number of people. Even if it's only 2-5% of the World's population routinely using it, it's a very significant percentage of people where the resources are - the 'West'. Which means a lot of value transfer it's really important.
As far as the majority of transactions... it doesn't have to be. But let's say it's 5%. or 10% or even 20% any of these numbers are absolutely massive. And why not? Lightning is very, very quick and with low fees. Add to this the inevitable abstractions, including custodians, ETFs, shared funds in businesses and family offices, family accounts etc... and the number of people using Bitcoin and being affected by it scales massively.
Remember that Amazon started selling books in 1995... and what they sold grew from there to the point of selling almost everything. I believe that eventually (who knows when) something similar could happen with Bitcoin - possibly with Micropayments on something like Stacker News or social media. They're cheap and quick... they help reduce spam and people like getting paid out in sats.