No leaderboard, No daily rewards ! \ stacker news ~meta

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2549 sats \ 77 comments \ @DarthCoin 5 Dec meta

Open proposal for SN

I think the actual SN system is flawed to the core and will only attract flies to the shit, making it slowly a shithole. I do not want anymore to see how the sats I am paying to post on SN are going to these assmilkers. Please consider removing entirely the daily rewards and the leaderboard. It only attract flies. Not just opt-in feature but for all stackers, by default.

No rewards, no leaderboard.

Only pay to post. MAKE THEM PAY. The incentive will be exclusively in p2p zaps.

Also make the ranking gained in a territory to be valid ONLY in that territory, for the rest of other territories to be 0. In this way, assmilkers if they want to zap each others and rank each others, they can have their own assmilking territory. For more you post in that territory, more ranks you have. But could not use the ranking gained fraudulently on other territories. Also will not gain sats from general SN pool. If they want to have their own circle jerking territory (assmilking club), so be it, let them assmilk each others until they get drained.

Or better remove all the ranks too.

How SN would be financed?

SN can be financed from the cost of making posts and comments. Also from a cut from territories posts and comments. Boosts and ads, jobs etc. Raise the cost of those and will be even more sats for SN but less for the assmilkers. Who really want to give sats to assmilkers, so be it, will give it from their OWN pockets but not from SN pools. You will see then how they will run like rats.

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1177 sats \ 25 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 5 Dec

I think that hiding the leaderboard will hide the gamification of the rewards even more. When you say 'no rewards', do you mean no daily rewards? If so, how are you going to reward those who curate content and don't comment or post much? Maybe that's not what you mean because you say: “Also will not gain sats from general SN pool.”

833 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 5 Dec

That is what he means and it's also why this is a bad idea.

17 sats \ 4 replies \ @carlosfandango 5 Dec

No idea on the theory behind this but instead of hiding the leaderboard; how about if you hide yourself you are removed form the daily rewards…

43 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin OP 5 Dec

Hiding yourself is making things even worse. Leaderboard is a total useless trash and a reason for others to watch your moves/zaps/comments etc

I hide myself after long time staying visible, because I don't want anymore that assmilkers will see what I zap, how I zap etc.

Zapping should be something personal, p2p, to reward the content, not to gain ranks in a leaderboard.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @TNStacker 5 Dec

Great point!

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @0xbitcoiner 5 Dec

I don't think it's fair that a person who genuinely wants privacy should be removed from the daily rewards, even though we know that being hidden makes it easier to go unnoticed when manipulating the daily rewards. Unfortunately I don't have a solution for this.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @carlosfandango 5 Dec

But privacy comes at a cost. As does publicly manipulating the system.

Maybe it just needs to continue as is and see where it all ends up.

2 sats \ 18 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 5 Dec

The SN pool system is quite easy to game. Rewards should be exclusively from p2p zaps. If someone wants to give you the sats for your PoW, so be it, they will zap you the amount they want.

In the end SN always was a "pay to post" system. The rewards were something added later but it degenerate in something really awful.

154 sats \ 17 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 5 Dec

I understand what you're saying, but I think that if you end the daily rewards, the SN will end shortly afterwards because the incentives for curators who don't participate much, will end. How do you solve this?

10 sats \ 16 replies \ @zapsammy 5 Dec

if u feed a cat, u got a cat. parasitic activity is inevitable when subsidies are readily available for very low effort. think about the dynamics of every day life, and apply it to stacker.news model as well. we are dealing with real people after all, even if they program bots and AI-assistants.

132 sats \ 15 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 5 Dec

I don't feed cats, I eat them! 🤠 Do you have a solution to the problem I've outlined?

0 sats \ 14 replies \ @zapsammy 5 Dec

yes, the solution is to think hard and use the brain, as grandma always tells me.

"altruism is the tool to pull the wool over your eyes"

1 sat \ 13 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 5 Dec

Unfortunately that's not a solution, but the music is good and your grandmother knows it!

12 sats \ 12 replies \ @zapsammy 5 Dec

directly from Latin solutionem (nominative solutio) "a loosening or unfastening,"

https://www.etymonline.com/word/solution

unleash the brain, ey?

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638 sats \ 2 replies \ @B_for_Bitcoin 5 Dec

Fortunately, the owners of SN, @k00b and @ek, do not pay attention to what Darth says; otherwise, this could have led to the downfall of SN.

33 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin OP 5 Dec

Maybe they read this, but I know they are really busy right now with finishing the p2p wallets stuff, that is more urgent for them.

Also that I see it as a mistake, is not the right time to do that. (p2p zaps). Is too early, most of stackers are not prepared for such move.

And this proposal could fix other issues they have with the p2p zaps too. If they will remove the rewards and the leaderboard, p2p zaps will also be easier and cleaner.

I prefer to be that "bad guy" in the eyes of everybody, but I could bring the balance of the force in SN...

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @zapsammy 5 Dec

they shall learn game theory the hard way, let the children play and make mistakes, it won't take long. u have spoken and planted the idea in their heads. one day, when stackers are more clear-headed, the scolding and yelling will be less necessary.

91 sats \ 1 reply \ @DesertDave 5 Dec

I like the idea of it all being the same as it is but no leaderboard to look at, comparing ourselves to each other. Then it would be a surprise each day what the rewards were. The rewards help motivate me to want to put out posts each day. Maybe I am an ass-milker. 🤷‍♂️ And I am definitely clueless so this probably isn't a topic I am qualified to share on. That's how I feel though.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan 5 Dec

true, it motivates us to "put out posts each day." But we're not (primarily) motivated by the sats our links our (short) comments may or may not earn us from others, but climbing up the leaderboard and gaining those sweet sweet rewards.

Smells like Ponzi

111 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined 5 Dec

They are planning to decentralize the rewards, with each territory having its own. That would do a lot of what you want, without taking away something that is fundamental to how SN functions.

13 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave 5 Dec

Thats awesome. I like this idea. I trust the builders here. They seem to have great ideas.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @south_korea_ln 5 Dec

I like the daily reward system. All of it goes back into SN one way or another, i.e. I don't use the sats to buy stuff outside of SN. So it's not really for the sats that I like it. Receiving daily sats motivates to give back to the community. Removing it would be a loss, from my personal perspective.

I don't care about the ass-milkers. I have a few of them muted. Others you consider ass-milkers have already provided me with value. So, I don't mind if they provide this value with the sole purpose of making cheap sats. Someone who is considered a valuable contributor by many (most?) here is an obvious ass-milker to me. I muted him. I'm good, I'm at peace.

247 sats \ 1 reply \ @scatman 5 Dec

Why do you care so much about how other people spend THEIR sats? Aren't THEY entitled to be sovereign individuals too?

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 5 Dec

I don't care what they are doing with their sats. I care to not be fooled by a flawed rewards system that attract flies instead of bees.

56 sats \ 13 replies \ @Shugard 5 Dec

Let's face it, I came for the rewards, I stayed for the content. In my short month here on SN I have tried very hard to get into the reward pool. Thought about content, commented just for the sake of commenting and zapped medioca stuff.

But less and less. I only zap what I think is worth zapping. And there have been times when I have opened my computer, zapped recently and found nothing. So I zapped and commented nothing.

I try to hit the one post mark every day. But honestly, just for the cool hat, not for the rewards (because one post a day will not reward you if you are not @denlillaapan).

107 sats \ 12 replies \ @denlillaapan 5 Dec

pff, I'm merely a humble stacker (and professional shitposter) next to @realBitcoinDog and @Undisciplined etc

100 sats \ 11 replies \ @Undisciplined 5 Dec

I hate to put this pressure on you, but you've gone a long way towards filling the void of the late great @elvismercury.

Your posts are thought provoking and entertaining. I'm always excited when I see a new Money Class of the Day.

42 sats \ 10 replies \ @denlillaapan 5 Dec

glad to hear it, sir!

Yeah, I've definitely enjoyed writing them and I've been rewarded handsomely by the Stackers directly (@DarthCoin style) -- but I would be lying if I said the (size of the) rewards pool on a given day didn't affect my posting.

SN rewards gamifies the information flow/posting in ways that are probably not great -- and certainly not economically sustainable.

0 sats \ 9 replies \ @Undisciplined 5 Dec

SN rewards gamifies the information flow/posting in ways that are probably not great -- and certainly not economically sustainable.

Expand?

12 sats \ 8 replies \ @realBitcoinDog 5 Dec

Sure the best posts get the most zaps, but that’s the same as Nostr.

It’s rewards that makes regular people want to post who aren’t “the greatest.”

45 sats \ 7 replies \ @denlillaapan 5 Dec

No Nostr would be equivalent to what DC is talking about: no rewards, no games, no leaderboards, just zaps.

The leaderboard and the extra rewards make you (I dunno, perhaps just me...?) read and comment on things you don't really care about, in order to move up and bag additional sats. I guess you could say that's the point, but it's still a little disingenuous -- engagement farming basically. (Wouldn't do that on Nostr, for instance.)

Also, that incentive works only because of the large daily donation pot -- not because SN itself is running a profitable advertising/pay-for-posting/territory rent platform. You gut the juicy sats, a lot of the point with SN goes away. So the platform (mostly) works for as long as it's being bankrolled and subsidised by someone.

But hey, I'm new here -- maybe I got all of this wrong?

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @Undisciplined 5 Dec

We have to parse the point about engagement farming, because there's a positive element to it as well. On nostr, or other similar platforms, I often scroll right past stuff without really looking at it. Getting people to stop and take a look at content is part of the point. On the other hand, if we're regularly stopping to read and zap content we don't actually value, that is a problem.

There wasn't always a large donation to the pot. That came sometime after territories were created and I think it's partially to offset how expensive territory rent is. k00b expects daily ad revenue to exceed 100k at some point in the near future and is preemptively creating that environment.

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31 sats \ 1 reply \ @carlosfandango 5 Dec

I respect your opinion - you have been sharing your thought on this for a long while.

Something shifted on SN with MSM - it brought out the worst in people.

Too much vapid noise and not enough quality content being rightly rewarded. It may have been smaller but when SN was mostly BTC, sport or Austrian economics you could always find something worth engaging with. These days even the Saloon is boring…

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 10 Dec

deleted by author

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rexdentron 5 Dec

Can't agree more

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @TheWildHustle 5 Dec

I like the rewards and leaderboard. (Although I rarely check the leaderboard.

I see SN as a way to earn bitcoin for insightful comments and valuable posts, similar to nostr.

If the rewards and gamified elements didn't exist, I would still use SN, but probably wouldn't post as much. I probably fall into the assmilker category.......

People use SN for different reasons, my reasons might not be entirely pure. I want to earn sats. I love the community and have made great online friends and have been motivated and really encouraged to do things here. But at the end of the day I'm here as an earner (assmilker). I want to create posts that generate a lot of sats, I want to cross post to nostr so that people click on the link and give me the referral bonus. I enjoy looking at the daily rewards and showing TheWildWife my spoils of victory.

Not sure how I should handle this personality defect of mine. Touch grass? Continue my greedy activities, but with a twinge of shame?

Advice is welcome.

Should I see SN as a way to earn bitcoin for posting valuable content, or should I see SN as a platform for the professional and erudite to reveal wisdom......or something else?

20 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin OP 5 Dec

Don't worry, you will still get sats for good stuff. But those will be p2p zaps from those that appreciate your content.

The thing I want to point out is that the actual system is exactly like free shit a socialist gov is using to fool people into paying taxes, to have "free shit".

Removing the leaderboard and daily rewards it makes that "free shit" goes away and only those that merit get The Real Shit (sats). Make it harder for assmilkers to earn "free shit".

Right now I feel like I am working hard to do my job and paying taxes so a dumb ass staying in the couch all days, just grab a nice retribution from "the gov" as "a reward" for voting nively.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheWildHustle 5 Dec

Understandable.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @0xbitcoiner 5 Dec

You have to come up with a name for stackers who are waiting for a post to be zapped and then go there to comment, to fool the OP, the OP might think it was him who zapped the post. Have you noticed this strategy before?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 5 Dec

yes I saw also this method and others more.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @hasherstacker 5 Dec

@DarthCoin is right. The incentive for the Stackers on SN, should be the zaps. After all, it's only @k00b and a few others who donate to the SN rewards pool.

11 sats \ 13 replies \ @stack_harder 5 Dec

how does the leaderboard encourage assmilking? do they donate more and get more zaps back or something?

54 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin OP 5 Dec

Assmilker A make a post in X territory (usually with a low fee because they are fucking poor scammers).
Assmilker B (that also could be same individual with multiple sockpuppet accounts) came and zap that post from A. Usually few sats, no more than few hundred because is a risk for them.
Sometimes they came with more sockpuppet accounts like C and D and zap more.
Then all these sockpuppets accounts and other assmilkers came and start commenting, creating more "noise activity" usually with phrases generated by shitGPT because they are lazy and stupid.
This method is made over and over on all territories generating ranks to each others to push them into top daily leaderboard. Is practically noise and they do not have to use too many sats from their own pockets. They cannot use the anon account because that one is useless. Zapping with anon do not create anything, is only a "personal reward" nothing else.
So in the end even the sats that supposedly they "donated" to SN pool and also from making posts, are going back to the same, but also is taking from all other stackers.
Now come the worst part: GULLIBLE stackers that are even gaslighting more and voting their useless posts with more sats. That will push the assmilkers even more on top.

As I said many times here:

make separation between zaps and votes, to be clearly visible. Who wants to give sats as personal appreciation, so be it, nothing against that. But separate them from votes. Maybe somebody want to give sats but not votes or vice-versa.
also separate upvotes from downvotes.
the leaderboard is only incentivizing bots, shitGPT posts and low content.
if some territory wants to implement a pool exclusively for that territory, they should do it in another way, but not affecting / involving the rest of stackers.

That's why I strongly suggest to remove ENTIRELY the leaderboard, the ranks, and the daily SN pool rewards. Make it clear for all.

Who wants to give his sats to assmilkers, so be it, but from their own pockets.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @stack_harder 6 Dec

could this be partially mitigated by having an increased fee to post ?

some kind of sweet spot, like 500 sats or something, although some territories like history the fee is like 4000 sats, which is way to high. I have a ton of topics i would like to discuss there, but not at 4k sats.

0 sats \ 10 replies \ @Undisciplined 5 Dec

That's not how donations work, although Darth seems to believe otherwise.

22 sats \ 9 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 5 Dec

I played for years with SN testing all kind of stuff and observing a lot all other stackers. I know what am I talking about.

If I donate 1000 sats to SN pool is going to the assmilkers that are upvoting each others in multiple territories and posts and comments. They are literally playing the system.

And the biggest problem here is that only few stackers seems to see this shit going on, I am literally screaming out loud to a fucking wall. because many others continue to sustain those assmilkers... and in the end I am the one accused of molesting, when in fact is the way around.

But yeah, no problem, I can take the shit when others do not dare to say it loud that is a fucking mess.

100 sats \ 8 replies \ @Undisciplined 5 Dec

The rewards formula has changed many times. The current iteration does not reward donations. k00b has stated this explicitly and there's a description of the rewards factors in the FAQ, which I know you've read.

Edit to address the comments you added: Donations aren't an effective way around the sybil fees, because they get dispersed to all the other stackers. It would be more effective to zap each other with those sats than to donate them.

41 sats \ 7 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 5 Dec

Is simple: remove it at all. And then you will see how the rats are running out. Free shit always attract rats and flies, like communism. I am really tired of hunting down all these scammers instead of focusing on things that matter.

100 sats \ 6 replies \ @Undisciplined 5 Dec

I basically agree with that, but you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

The rewards aren't designed to be a faucet. They're designed to reward behavior that improves Stacker News.

You don't have to take away the entire system to fix whichever part is broken.

24 sats \ 5 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 5 Dec

If SN will be populated with serious bitcoiners minding their business and helping each others with nice content and discussions, then yes, the rewards could be something more, like sharing their own "pay to posts" sats. That I can agree.

But right now the rewards only attract more assmilkers. If you still do not see that, sorry but you are really blind.

Removing rewards will make stackers to zap each others in a more direct way and really appreciation. That will show the real value of each sat.

If I would be an assmilker and I know that 1000 sats zapped through multiple other assmilking posts will come back in form of 1500 sats at the end of the day, then ofc will incentivize assmilking and sockpupeting.

But if they will not get nothing in return, their sats will be gone. EMPTY POCKETS

100 sats \ 4 replies \ @Undisciplined 5 Dec

I do see what you're saying, although I think you're exaggerating the issue.

There have been several conversations where k00b acknowledges that the incentives need to be adjusted. They're planning on addressing this once the wallet stuff is finished.

My problem is that you're basically proposing the destruction of SN to fix an issue with SN. The rewards system is why we have higher signal than nostr clients or other platforms that enable V4V.

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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 5 Dec

Can we not use that term... 'assmilking'? I mean, the conversation aside, it seems like a really, really likely way to turn off newcomers and people just learning about Bitcoin.

I had never heard that term before SN... and I don't enjoy hearing it tbh.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 5 Dec

It's the right term. We have to tell how things they are not coming with sweet words or PC bullshit.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @TNStacker 5 Dec

Great discussion. I see both sides. I was here before daily rewards and will be here if they go. However, over time I find @DarthCoin to be at one with the Force regarding Bitcoin. I don't trust him blindly, but I do trust him.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @hasherstacker 5 Dec

Welcome back from the future, @DarthCoin.

Only pay to post. MAKE THEM PAY. The incentive will be exclusively in p2p zaps.