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Will owning a utxo be a luxury in the future?
512 sats \ 31 comments \ @stack_harder 6 Dec bitcoin
Ok, I only learned about utxos during the last high fee spike and I still find them a bit hard to conceptualize to be honest, that being said.
if we assume more bitcoin adoption over time (which i think is what we all assume), then we know that means more competition for block space and more fees and smaller utxos eventually becoming dust.
So given a long enough time frame, would that mean that basically new stackers in 10-15 years (or whatever time period) might just be using lightning, thus not being able to own their uxtos?
or just the situation where onchain is used for big expensive things and lighting for everything else?
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21 sats \ 8 replies \ @telcobert 6 Dec
Yes, owning a UTXO will be a luxury in the future.
You will need to afford it, as owning a UTXO will not be necessary, it will be a drag.
Assuming that Bitcoin will be adopted as a general money for trade and industry, UTXOs and L1 capacity will be needed for businesses paying each other large amounts in a non-censorable way. This is called "wholesale money".
Most of end user money will be productively invested in shares or company bonds or savings & loan banks to fund trade and industry. Bitcoin will be put to work, and this will yield a return. Rational end users will not want to forgo this return by not investing or saving, unless for some very specific reason.
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62 sats \ 3 replies \ @DarthCoin 6 Dec
Sell your sats now. I will be glad to take them all.
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21 sats \ 2 replies \ @telcobert 6 Dec
There is a big difference between saving and selling, but you know that, or?
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111 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 6 Dec
If you only save and never spend (as money), then what are you going to use as money? CBDCs? bullshit tokens? Bitcoin must circulate in order to gain power.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @telcobert 6 Dec
"Bitcoin must circulate in order to gain power."
I literally said that above. Saving, as opposed to hoarding, allows Bitcoin to circulate, because saved Bitcoin will be invested or loaned out, put to work. Not 'sold' that's again a different thing.
We save so we can spend in the future, by unsaving. And this is all happening in retail money, not wholesale money (L1 UTXO's).
If I had to bet (I must actually) my bet is on non-custodial ecash, redeemable in bitcoin.
PS: No trolling. Considered answers or questions, please, or it's goodbye.
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7 sats \ 3 replies \ @stack_harder OP 6 Dec
i don't know about that, some people will want to find a way to generate yield I'm sure, but I still think there will be a thriving amount of people that also use it as money.
that level of bitcoin expansion would mean we have a ton more merchants that accept it nativley
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14 sats \ 2 replies \ @telcobert 7 Dec
When talking about the FUTURE of Bitcoin, consider it monetised. The game will have changed fundamentally.
The exchange value of Bitcoin will be naturally stable. There will be no expectation of profit by holding it outright (hoarding) beyond liquidity needs, because of opportunity cost, as it could have been saved and loaned out profitably.
"Use it as money" will mean you will keep as much liquid as you expect to use for upcoming spending.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @stack_harder OP 7 Dec
it depends on what the deal is with fiat, if there is a duel system, then fiat will always be in decline relative to btc, in which case, btc is still the ideal way to preserve wealth and use as savings.
if it's a btc standard in a world of no fiat, which i find hard to believe, then btc would be like gold back in the day, you have it, can save it, can spend it and retain purchasing power over the decades
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @telcobert 7 Dec
Kind of. Hoarding and saving should not be conflated, that's all.
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131 sats \ 9 replies \ @DarthCoin 6 Dec
No. Don't worry, we will have many options forward. Just be patient, devs are working on it.
This doom idea that "not everybody will be able to own a UTXO" is spread by those that want to change Bitcoin and LN to work FOR their business model...
We will have many new tools that will make LN working very smooth: eltoo, channel factories, sharing utxo, covenants etc.
Also is not really necessary that every individual to have its own UTXO, only node runners, that can run a LN bank for their family and friends. Nothing wrong with that. I run it myself for almost 3 years now, with limited users to which I offer them enough liquidity and access for their needs. Nothing burger. I wrote several guides about that.
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21 sats \ 5 replies \ @ek 6 Dec
Your meme mentions the opposite of what you wrote. You wrote:
This doom idea that "not everybody will be able to own a UTXO" is spread by those that want to change Bitcoin and LN to work FOR their business model...
Your meme:
The problem of Bitcoin today is businesses wanting to stop Bitcoin and LN from changing in ways that obsolete their business model.
That's one example of how you often twist reality to suit whatever you want to say.
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0 sats \ 4 replies \ @DarthCoin 6 Dec
No, you didn't understand the meme.
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0 sats \ 3 replies \ @ek 6 Dec
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12 sats \ 2 replies \ @DarthCoin 6 Dec
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @zapsammy 6 Dec
do u ever laugh so hard that u cry and snot comes out of ur nose? this was one of those rare moments. the meme is so funny, it must have cleansed something inside of me.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 6 Dec
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10 sats \ 2 replies \ @stack_harder OP 6 Dec
i'm not too worried as I still don't fully grasp the ramifications, if anything I'm more worried about making sure i don't end up with dust utxos, although since i learned about consolidation, I'm not worried about that so much either
out of curiosity, what are some of the things devs are working on?
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32 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 6 Dec
what are some of the things devs are working on?
Always read the Bitcoin OPtech newsletter. Is very good source of staying up to date with what is going on in the Bitcoin space.
https://bitcoinops.org/
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20 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 6 Dec
making sure i don't end up with dust utxos
This is an important chart you should keep in mind.
As I explained in my guides: accumulate slowly with multiple LN wallets, then when you have a decent amount, just swap out into a UTXO in your cold wallet.
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42 sats \ 4 replies \ @justin_shocknet 6 Dec
Always has been.
If you can't afford a UTXO, you do not own Bitcoin.
If you have your Bitcoin in an exchange, it's not your UTXO, and it's therefore not your Bitcoin.
For this reason, most people who think they own Bitcoin today do not. They may have rights to it in a legal sense, price exposure, but do not unilaterally control a UTXO.
Why is this the status quo? Technical friction.
Friction is an inherent trade-off vs. centralization, and the number of people willing to overcome that are few. If you manage to solve one friction, there will just be another, and another after that, because decentralization necessitates it.
One friction in particular remains unsolvable, and that's by design. There's only 8 decimal places of Bitcoin, and the value of each decimal is increasing exponentially. Affording enough decimals is technical friction, and despite the claims of many scammers trying to set up coordination schemes while avoiding regulators, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SHARED UTXO.
An ATM that only puts out $20's can't help you if you only have $10 to your name. Scammers are claiming to have a more granular ATM, but to achieve that it spits out chuck-e-cheese tokens you need to redeem at the counter and not real $20 bills you can use somewhere else.
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17 sats \ 1 reply \ @anon 9 Dec
I zapped your post with my own instance of lightning.pub and shockwallet, thank you for your hard work sir. Hope to see some new updates soon!
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @justin_shocknet 9 Dec
🙏
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 9 Dec
You wouldn't call lightning channels shared UTXOs?
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @justin_shocknet 9 Dec
Nope, each party needs a UTXO to use it, which is the source of FUD scammers use to claim it doesn't scale.
If the channel point were actually shared, then the shared UTXO scam projects wouldn't have anything to FUD it with.
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42 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheBTCManual 6 Dec
No I don't think so, I think when you reach a certain level of holdings you wouldn't want to risk that value in a shared UTXO model or at the very least trim down your exposed position.
I know fees can be a pain but pain has an upper limit, its not like people are going to be bidding a million sats per vbyte, block space has a price and it will change from day to day and if you're planning on holding long term on chain, even 1% fee of your stack is still less than you're paying for custodial services like ETFs
Shared UTXOs may be more common in the future with channel factories and ark, but I don't see that being the default, those UTXOs would be shared because their turn over between users is quick
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @zapsammy 6 Dec
keep on studying bitcoin
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0 sats \ 4 replies \ @caivai 6 Dec freebie
I think there's a bit too much fixation on utxos and wallets. If you could use the idea of paying for groceries with a ten dollar note and receiving five dollars and twenty cents as one utxo, how long would you possess or own that utxo?
Just like people use frictionless payments, it really doesn't matter all that much if you can transact. That said, if you have a bank account, that's helpful.