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Why do we grade kids at all? #13 BTC teacher in Fiat Madland

1374 sats \ 40 comments \ @Shugard 20 Dec alter_native

Why do we grade kids at all?

Finally back with another episode of BTC Teacher in Fiat Madland.

We were coming to the end of the midterms so I was busy as hell.

Midterms Are Coming

So, as a teacher, I face the typical dilemma. Do I punish the kid with a bad grade for his misbehavior, or do I just gift good grades to give the kid an easy life?

Why am I the one to choose? Why do I have the power?

Okay, let's back up for a second. Since I work in the public school system as a teacher, it is my job to reward the kids for their learning. Evaluating how well the child is learning is my job.

But what do we teachers do?

What we have to do is to have at least 3 grades per student per midterm. Let us assess the situation:

I teach 15 classes a week with about 27 kids each. Let us say I have about 400 students to grade each midterm. That's 3 grades per kid times 400 kids, we end up with 1200 grades.

I have to grade about 12 tests a day, every weekday afternoon. With each test between 5-15min, that is at least 2 hours of extra work each day.

What does everyone want?

So the Overlord wants me to track 1200 individual learning curves over a period of 20 weeks. Sure, why not. So he can get statistics from ever smarter kids to justify public spending.
The kids want good grades to avoid trouble at home or with their teachers, honestly they couldn't care less about their learning progress (for the fast majority), so they cheat as much as they can and learn as little as possible.
For me as a teacher, the incentive is to make grading as easy as possible so that I dont waste my free time with 1200 tests.

So what is the result? The government forces me to give unnecessary tests, most of my colleagues will give multiple choice or yes-no questions to not waste their free time, and kids will cheat like hell on them.

Isn't education wonderful?

But wait, where is the teaching? where is the learning? where is the fun? right?

Yeah, not there.

What's my problem?

Since my own standard does not allow me to do stupid yes-no questions and I am too proud to do multiple choice tests, I do tests where the kids have to prove their critical thinking skills. This comes at a high price, kids have a very hard time cheating in my classes, they get angry. I have a very high price in the form of long grading time, so I sacrifice a lot of my free time in the afternoon. But for what exactly?

Yes, the kids, for the most part, enjoy my classes and I would say they even learn a lot more than in other classes. I also encourage critical thinking and the ability to think for oneself.

But at what cost? I waste a lot of my time and force the kids to actually learn and sacrifice a lot of their time. For a grade that does not even matter because it will never reflect the learning curve of the child. Just what I set as a standard.

My experiment

So this year I was running an experiment in the 10th grade econ class.

Still teaching the same class with the same topics and values. But the grading was not in the form of my typical tests. Instead I used the ECB workbooks and divided them into 3 sections, collected them 3 times this semester and graded those.

The result, they seem to have learned nothing. Sure, they were entertained in my class, but what they wrote down as a reflection of what was in their heads was terrible.

What to do now?

So should I go back and sacrifice time and effort from my side and from 1200 students to get the learning curve going again or should I blend into the incentives given and just give up, do some multiple choice test, let them cheat and everyone is happy?

Government gets its "smart" kids and good results, kids get good grades and happy parents and they don't have to learn anything they don't want to know and I save a lot of free time for my family?

What do you think about this? What do you think about the school grades in gernarl?

Let me know!

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231 sats \ 16 replies \ @SimpleStacker 20 Dec

I have the same dilemma. Every teacher has to find the balance they are comfortable with. You are right that one of the suckiest things about teaching is that every incentive just pushes you towards a low-effort approach that makes everyone happy but results in no learning.

Let me tell you what I do and what my philosophy is, and you can let me know what you think. I'd also be interested in hearing from @cryotosensei who is also a teacher.

Multiple choice tests
- I do use these. I find that it's a necessary balance between the need to assess learning outcomes and my time available to grade. These can test critical thinking skills if you give a tricky problem. However, they are not good at testing communication skills and are prone to guessing/cheating.
Individual writing assignments
- I do these as well, but I use an AI grading tool that gives them instant feedback regarding grammar, flow, and structure. The good thing about this is by the time their writing gets to me, it is easier to read. Without it, I will get absolutely unreadable essays. This does not violate my conscience because I do not consider it part of my duties to teach them to write. (They should already know how, but many don't.)
- Beyond the grammar and structure which is graded by AI, I give a simplistic rating on the content. Either below/meets/exceeds expectations. Generally, I just look at their writing briefly and ask: "Is there anything obviously wrong about this?", and "Does this make me want to read it more carefully since it looks like there's something interesting here?"
- Again, the need is to balance time with learning. I figure that by making them write and think about it is already a valuable learning experience, whether or not the grade is fully reflective of their competence.
Group projects
- These are the assignments that really integrate all of a student's skills, including executive function, communication, and analytical ability.
- However, I do not have time to grade individualized projects, so I assign them in groups.
- The downside is a lot of deadbeat students free-ride off the efforts of their better peers.
- The upside is that the good students can really shine on these projects. I've had some great projects where students could showcase their skills.
Overall philosophy
- In the end, my philosophy is that those who don't want to learn won't, and those that do will.
- In every class, there is a mix of those who want to learn and those who don't.
- For those who don't want to learn, I acknowledge (to myself, not explicitly) that we are just playing a stupid game with each other. I really don't care what happens to these students and what grade they get. They get whatever grade they deserve according to the rules I set. Usually, they do the bare minimum to get the grade they want. I figure that by doing this bare minimum, they hopefully at least learned something that maybe will be useful to them one day in the future.
- For those that want to learn, I want to ensure that my class gives them the opportunity to acquire valuable skills, knowledge, and experience.

A reflection of how my philosophy plays out is the group projects. Yes, it is unfair that the good students do most of the work, but the way I see it is that they are acquiring a valuable experience. The bad students are able to get a decent grade by free-riding off others, but the grade itself is just part of the dumb game, so I don't let it bother me. Usually, they do badly enough in their individual assignments that the good students end up with better grades, despite having the same grades on the group project.

On cheating
- Honestly, I've never seen cheating to be a big enough problem. Even for things like multiple choice tests, I know cheating is not rampant because the students usually do so poorly on it anyway. I'm sure there are a handful that teach, but on the whole it doesn't seem to be a huge concern in my context.
- This plays out differently if the test is computerized, though. So because of that, all my tests are on paper, not on computer.

Edit:

Class discussions
- Forgot to mention, I do some class discussions as well. These tend not to be graded in any way.
- However, I think that even for the students who don't care about learning, this is where they might get the most of the class, because this is where we discuss high level concepts and how they apply to the real world in a non-technical manner that is helpful in shaping how the students view the world. This is where we can discuss things like the ill effects of rent control or how zoning regulations cause housing shortages.
- Since the topics deal with issues of current interest, the students are usually more engaged, even the ones who don't seem to care about learning or who aren't technically competent with the rest of the classwork.

141 sats \ 1 reply \ @cryotosensei 21 Dec

Thank you for this candid and comprehensive coverage of your testing methods and philosophies. I bookmarked your comment & consider it as part of my professional development.

I think it’s awesome that you set yourself a boundary that it’s not your job to teach your kids how to write. Setting boundaries is so vital to assuaging teacher’s guilt (because there is always more that we can do for our students but if we keep giving n giving and have nothing left in our tank, are we good for our students). It sets your mind free to focus on impart content and critical thinking skills. I can feel your conviction with regard to your classroom discussions xP. Even for unmotivated and least-progress students, I believe that they can be reached. Taking the focus on assessments and just exploring how to apply this concept encourages them to process the content. And this is the best we can do in our classroom.

Given that you @Shugard is going to be a father soon, I would suggest that you explore structures and processes so that you can replicate your assessments year after year rather than have to slog through students’ work every year.

In regard to your resistance about MCQ tests, how about giving your students a list of high-frequency, high-utility words at the start of your course? I teach dyslexic students myself and find that preteaching the vocab gives them more time to assimilate it into their minds. Also, when you set tests, I’m sure you will keep your sentences short and sweet and use images and charts and diagrams to aid reading. Perhaps you can design the kind of MCQ test that you yourself will be challenged and excited to take.

In regard to writing assignments, instead of essays, would case studies be feasible? In Singapore, for economics, we have a paper in which students are required to apply their understanding of concepts on case studies, let’s say inflation in the developed world. If you want to raise the bar, you can have two case studies and get them to compare between them *cue evil laugh 👿 *. The good thing about case studies is that you break the marks allocation assigned for an essay into smaller parts, say 3-4 questions. This makes marking more manageable and breaks the monotony. Your students will also benefit because they will be less likely to lose control of their ideas while writing haha.

The last thing I want to say is that we use a Terms of Specification which is aligned with Bloom’s Taxnomony. Specifically, when we set a major assessment, we must allocate 50% to remembering and understanding, 30% to applying and analysing and 20% to evaluating or even creating. Something like that. I think this will help you when you craft your tests. Even if you set straightforward items that you deem as giveaway questions, you don’t have to feel so shitty about it because hey, you have the remaining 20% aimed to protect the integrity of your assessment.

Just my two sats’ worth

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @Shugard OP 22h

and use images and charts and diagrams to aid reading

Honestly, I never thought about that! Sometimes the simplest solutions go under when you overthink it too much. This is something I can work with in MCQs. THANKS!

In regard to writing assignments, instead of essays, would case studies be feasible?

As a student, I loved case studies! They were my favorites! There was no bullshit writing knowledge back on the paper, but thinking about solutions to cases. But! Questin being here, are there case studies for 10th grade kids with little to no understanding? And if so, is that not a lot of reading in the grading? So a lot of time again?

we must allocate 50% to remembering and understanding, 30% to applying and analysing and 20% to evaluating or even creating.

Legally, I have to do that as well. 60% remember. 30% Using what I remember. 10% critical thinking. While most of my colleagues do 80% remembering and 20% applying and no critical thinking, I do 20% remembering, 50% applying and 30% critical thinking.

None of us teachers are audited by our overlords and I set the bar much higher than the others, which leads to my dilemma.

But thinking about what you said, I may be able to find my peace with MCQ and give it 50% and 50% of a mix on applied and critical thinking.

Thanks a lot!

@SimpleStacker and @cryotosensei Mixing both of your ideas and throwing in my own mix will help me craft and think about this over the holidays and hopefully come up with a more time efficient but still fair grading system in the end! Thank you for your contribution!

41 sats \ 11 replies \ @Shugard OP 20 Dec

These can test critical thinking skills

Multiple-choice questions test reading comprehension.

I myself grew up with dyslexia, I could solve the shit out of everything for my age. But I could not read the questions.

Your individual writing assignments sound super interesting! What kind of AI grading tool do you use and what is the task like that the kids have to solve? please enlighten me!

I agree with your assessment of group projects, I am still getting better at them and they are more fun for the kids and much less time consuming for me.

Forgot to mention, I do some class discussions as well. These tend not to be graded in any way.

This was my go to grade! One grade the kids can earn throughout the semester and two grades I have to assign. But since the state I work in has changed its policies and rules, it is no longer allowed because it would discriminate against the kids who are afraid to speak.

Other than that, I agree with most of what you say. I think it is just my pride and my own experience as a student that I am against multiple choice.

But I am very curious about the structure of your writing exams!

11 sats \ 7 replies \ @SimpleStacker 20 Dec

One of the good things about the US education system is that it is very progressive towards disabilities. A student with dyslexia would be offered increased time and perhaps a separate testing environment. Maybe even someone to help read the questions, depending on the situation. I had to work with a blind student before and I actually made written descriptions of all the graphs... it was a lot of work, but the blind student got a great grade!

The AI tool is called Packback. The writing assignments are varied, but one example is: "Assess what you think about this policy being proposed in this year's ballot."

It's open ended, but I usually lead a discussion session about the writing assignment topic before it's due, so that the students have a jumping off point to think about.

30 sats \ 6 replies \ @Bell_curve 21 Dec

is this the right link?

https://www.packback.co/

11 sats \ 5 replies \ @SimpleStacker 21 Dec

yep

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Bell_curve 21 Dec

I have a friend who teaches math/science in Santa Monica (Crossroads).

He told me: I have opposed grading for years. I support mastery transcripts: no letter grades, all grades are narratives

11 sats \ 3 replies \ @SimpleStacker 21 Dec

Oh, no way. We live near that area and visited Crossroads as a possible choice for sending one of our kids.

I understand where your friend is coming from, but I don't think it's always practical. It could work at a smaller sized private school, but not a large public one.

There also needs to be an objective criterion by which students are held back. To me, the biggest problem in our education system is we're not holding back kids who should be.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Bell_curve 21 Dec

Crossroads is expensive and has too many Hollywood elitists.

They were woke before it was trendy for schools to be woke.

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21 sats \ 2 replies \ @Bell_curve 21 Dec

You have to be flexible about multiple choice, don't underestimate the importance of reading comprehension.

Have you seen previous exams of AP Economics (USA)?

Harvey Mansfield taught government at Harvard, He gave his students 2 grades: one grade is for your transcript, the second grade is the grade you deserved

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2013/12/04/harvard-grade-inflation

11 sats \ 1 reply \ @Shugard OP 22h

Very interesting! Thanks for the tip!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 21h

Unlike @SimpleStacker and @cryotosensei I have zero experience teaching teenagers

But I know multiple choice exams can be challenging especially if you don’t know the material

Case studies can be fun because students can see that economics has real world value

What are the economic effects of Germany shutting down nuclear power plants?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Bell_curve 20 Dec

Multiple choice tests are underrated

note: I am not a teacher

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Shugard OP 22h

What do you mean by underrated?

32 sats \ 8 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 21 Dec

Restart grading everything on a statistical curve and the devil take the hindmost. No mercy, let them earn what they deserve. Harsh, but easy times require harsh measures,.

21 sats \ 7 replies \ @Shugard OP 22h

Restart grading everything on a statistical curve

This could be interesting! It would destroy so many students.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 21h

Why? Is the current grading that inflated?

31 sats \ 5 replies \ @Shugard OP 21h

Every time the average grade in my class is C or below C, I get complaints from the principal. I get an appointment and have to prove that the student was able to get a B or an A with the material I provided in my class. So again, extra time...

This year I had 6 of such complaints.

I would argue that the average grade at my school is a B-, so the average kid is good and smart? Hell no, the average kid is lazy and dont understand anything, but it looks good on paper and in the statistics.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 9h

I went through that when I was teaching at a college. I caught some students cheating by copying each other’s work and putting their names on it. It just happened to be a class in PowerPoint presentations. I could hold the papers up to the light and see that a group of them were exchanging work to pass it in. The only thing different was the names on the papers. It is almost impossible to place images on a presentation slide in the exact same place with the exact same rotation & etc. I had to justify to the dean of students giving them zeros for the assignments and Fs for the class. The thing that saved my hide was that the student handbook had rules against plagiarism.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Bell_curve 19h

make the average B- to avoid meetings with the principal

University of California graduate students get B- or better because anything below is considered fail or unsatisfactory. It's not a big deal because most grad students get A's anyway because of grade inflation etc.

A professor will not give C+ or lower because it's an administrative hassle to fail a graduate student. Every professor will avoid the nuclear option unless it is absolutely necessary, e.g. student fails on purpose.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 9h

Corruption, through-and-through the whole system from administration through to the instructors and passed on to the students. I wonder if those groups know that the businesses looking for new hires also understand the total corruption of the education system. I understand Harvard students are having a very difficult time getting hired anywhere but Daddy’s company.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 21h

Could this be another reason why education (right now) does not meet the demand for educated graduates?

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Shugard OP 17h

One of the many reasons I think!

32 sats \ 1 reply \ @denlillaapan 20 Dec

Burn the shit down.

Also, I'm reminded of the old Soviet adage: "We pretend to work, and you pretend to pay us."

Becomes nothing but a game to the kids

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @Shugard OP 20 Dec

"We pretend to work, and you pretend to pay us."

That's how the system looks like

31 sats \ 2 replies \ @Fiat_Revelation 20 Dec

Incentives are broken in these schools.

As you pointed out, capitulation to the bureaucrats and administrators probably easiest. Status quo teaching will churn out good little automatons and nobody will complain. Good teaching will inevitably stir up the shit, because the shit is there to begin with and it is a teachers job to show people that it is. You're not doing something wrong but you'll pay the price for exposing the truth.

If you want to be a teacher that actually makes a different in the lives of your students and get rewarded for your efforts, mainstream school will let you down ten-times out of ten.

Have you considered starting your own school? Moving to a more teacher friendly cou try like UAE? Maybe other states have better systems?

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @Shugard OP 20 Dec

mainstream school will let you down ten-times out of ten.

Ouch! Right in the feels

Have you considered starting your own school?

That might be a cool idea!

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan 20 Dec

Yes, yes and yes.

This guy gets it

21 sats \ 4 replies \ @chaoticalHeavy 20 Dec

Could you automate your grading by using a data entry system for them to take exams?

If so, everything could be in a computer and you just run your grading scripts over their inputs.

Grading would be consistent and fair because you remove the human variable (you).

You could set up the scripts and test them before the first class of the year and have all your afternoons free.

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @Shugard OP 20 Dec

Could you automate your grading by using a data entry system for them to take exams?

What would that look like? And wouldn't that just be fancy multiple choice?

32 sats \ 2 replies \ @chaoticalHeavy 20 Dec

Multiple choice or "fill in the blank" type questions would be the simplest to set up.

The hard part is to design the test that you know how to grade.

My Physics professor would give multiple choice tests where he worked out the answer once correctly and three more times making common mistakes.

It was very hard. You weren't able to "show your work", just take your best shot and hope you got it right.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Shugard OP 22h

That's what I'm afraid of. It wouldn't test the kids' knowledge.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @chaoticalHeavy 18h

Altering your priorities can save you lots of time and effort, though.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Bell_curve 21 Dec

1200 students take 10th grade econ???

11 sats \ 2 replies \ @Shugard OP 22h

Nope. Just ~90. But they take econ and they take philosphy. so 180 "students" to grade in 10th grade. All have to get 3 grades per term. so 540 grades. That again for 9th grade and 8th grade econ.