pull down to refresh

Some earlier JBP book club posts:

Anecdotally, I find that there is an inverse relationship between how establishment intellectual you are (media, journalism, high academia) and how much you like Jordan Peterson. He speaks to the plebs, as much as the “bro” influencers, even though the subject matter seems like perfectly reasonable ivory tower material. ...and yet he seems appalling to the high priests of academia and the woke-lefty-political industrial complex.
I’m reading this The Economist review of We Who Wrestle With God from November this year and it’s oddly aggressive. The Economist, a magazine who otherwise take pretty balanced views and go out of their ways to portray things accurately, trash the book and JBP’s celebrity altogether. Mocking it, really.
Their reviewer is not impressed: The book reads “as if a Victorian vicar had been given a streaming subscription to Disney+ (and possibly some opium), then sat down to write his sermon.”
While they think the book isn't so much about God but JBP rambling about the divine, his other works -- Peterson Academy -- are ridiculed: “$500 a year gets you lectures by people with beards.”
Bro-followers are bad, Trump guilt-by-association:
Like Donald Trump and Joe Rogan, an American podcaster, he is one of a group of men who despite—or perhaps because of—being disdained by intellectual sorts are beloved by their “bro” followers.
I’ve found this tendency to absolutely trash JBP in many places of my life: highly educated woke women; highly educated conservative women; woke working-class men; establishment journalists; low-level and high-level male academics; close friends, both men and women, with degrees in law and other non-worthless degrees from top unis.
This is the portion of the attack I have never grasped:
I’m sorry, he got the losers of society, the outcasts, and the disillusioned men reading the Bible, Nietzsche, and existential philosophy… people who definitely didn’t have their shit together, to get their shit together, and that’s supposed to be a bad thing??
While I'm not exactly outcast (though definitely disillusioned), I have gained a lot from his work (podcast, books, lectures), and I find them revealing for life, personal development, and morality at large.
Clearly, I’m at odds with much people whose anger and indignation at this well-dressed and well-spoken Canadian is off the charts.
What am I missing?

non-paywalled here: https://archive.md/unqpG
I'm with you entirely. It has been really frustrating for me for all the reasons you say.
One critique that I can give, though, is JBP has an abysmal sense of humor and is total ass at trying to be a witty social media presence. He lowers himself to the level of his most idiotic critics, and (worst of all) is terrible at fighting at that level. Like they say, you should never mud wrestle a pig because you get dirty and the pig likes it.
The result of his dumb antics is that smart and well-meaning people take a quick glance at his goings-on and are confirmed in the belief that he's some stupid clown, just like everyone says. I can't for the life of me understand why he thinks this is a winning play.
It puts me in an awkward position of having to say "No, JBP is for real, he's a super thoughtful guy with deep expertise in a host of topics; but also, you'll have to ignore most of what he says in the media, just read his books and listen to his long-form interviews."
An own goal for sure.
reply
Truly.
I usually ask how many hours of content they've consumed. And when the answer is "zero," that's usually the end of the convo. Alright, so you don't know what you're talking about. OK
reply
Its rather simple to me. Dr. Peterson represents far to traditional of a world view. He's one of their own not rejecting the patriarchal world order. His thoughts reflect an out dated world view from their point of view.
Not long ago I heard JP speak to a conservative audience about how conservatives have failed to counter the progressive world view. Their response to the woke Intellectual class is to consider them absurd instead of demolishing them brick by brick. This is why the ivory tower hate JP. He's a threat.
I've said it before, JP is what has been largely missing from US Christian leadership. An intellectual response to the demolition of western civilization.
JP is not perfect but we need more like him.
reply
Yes. As a Christian i often find JP's takes a bit naive, but it's undeniable that his way with words has reached a lot of disaffected young men, in a way that pastors haven't been able to. It might just be a function of his platform, it might also be because many are still suspicious of traditional religion, but more open to the vague psychological spirituality offered by JP
reply
For sure a factor. There is also a deep desire for deeper more intellectal looks at the Christian stories that many raised in an evangelical culture haven't heard. But, you are correct. There are pastors that offer this but don't have his platform.
reply
It's hilarious that they think their audience needs an explanation as to who Joe Rogan is. Bro, he's a thousand times better known than your entire publication. No one needs you to tell them who Rogan is.
reply
My dad, ardent Never Trumper, former finance executive and subscriber to the Economist, didn't know who Joe Rogan is, yet nevertheless is willing to offer his takes on US politics
reply
Not a big pop culture guy, I'm guessing.
reply
I think he represents a certain demographic, low in number but high in spending power and influence, that forms the core audience of rags like The Economist. The fact that they don't even know Joe Rogan just shows how unequipped they are to understand current politics
reply
I think some of his comments are interesting... some insightful and I agree with them. However the majority I do not. So much of what he says just sounds like... "I'm 24 a young man with no girlfriend unemployed and angry at the world tell me why it's not my fault."
Or, 'i'm angry at the world and i want to blame women and the libs becuase i don't have a job or a girlfriend as a 20-something...' 'and JP is telling me that's OK i should be mad...'
That's completely what it sounds like and to me it's utter nonsense.
Now there is a crisis among young men out there... probably resulting from globalization and the changing nature of work. Most college students in north america are... female which is a huge departure from history.
However blaming women and 'the libs' for this like JP sometimes does... is not a solution it may be popular among young men but it's 99% nonsense.
Just my 2 sats
reply
Precisely what SimpleStacker says. If anything, his message is that it is your fault for being an unemployed 24yo with no gf
reply
Are you misreading JP or am I? I don't think his message is that "It's not your fault, you should blame women and the libs"
His message seems to me more like "You need to take responsibility for yourself and you need to live for higher ideals, that as it turns out aligns well with traditional Judeo Christian ethics"
reply
I've been following JP for years. I first came across him when I was a big Sam Harris fan, where they discussed truth almost 8 years ago. I've watched an obscene amount of his content and seen him live in 2018, 2019 and 2023.
My understanding of what's going on is the following:
  1. He's a threat to the “outsource your reality testing to the government” and “you're intellectually backwards if you believe God exists” ideas.
  2. His messages, like many public centrist/right-leaning intellectuals, get twisted to fulfil the narrative the woke left (or as Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz so elegantly put it "The Regressive Left") has been pushing for a decade to try and crush anything that challenges their dogma of collectivism – see how the “intellectual dark web,” from memory, copped it years ago.
  3. He's a direct competitor with establishment legacy institutions such as media (via Daily Wire/his podcast) and education/tertiary education (via Peterson Academy), which is traditionally left, leading us back to point 2.
I do think that the heat directed his way would be less if he focused on his core “personal responsibility” message and less on topical political talking points. But on the other hand, his input was probably another straw on the woke culture camel's back that helped move the West away from the psychosis.
FWIW, I'm a bit sad about the direction he's gone in. When I saw him live in 2018/19, his talks seemed unscripted. I remember reading that every night he'd talk, the topic would be different, and he'd go wherever his mind would take him. These live events were excellent. Fast forward to the end of 2023 – 10 minutes of advertisements at the beginning for his programs (e.g. Peterson Academy, DW, etc.), a 15-minute speech by his wife live on stage, and a 50-minute talk by Peterson, who covered literally no new ground from his talks in 2018/19. It was remarkably disappointing. It pains me to say, but I feel like he's sold out a little.
I'll forever see him favourably as my biggest intellectual influence during my most formative young adult years.
reply
While JBP has some interesting talking points, I find that I wholesale reject most of his positions. I reject the 12 rules and embrace chaos. JBP belives that chaos must be shunned, I do not believe he is correct, this is the natural order. Thrive in chaos.
He ultimately tries to blend mythology and religion into his philosophy, in a clunky way which leads to broken conclusions and reinforcement of dogma. JBP is a smart man, but not a kind man. Kindness is very important.
reply
What do you think kindness does? That is, why do you think it's important?
reply
Anyone can be an asshole, that's easy.
It takes a special human to have empathy for others experience, even when it does not reflect on ones own experiences.
Intelligence is not distributed evenly in society, and kindness isn't either.
reply
This book kind of convinced me otherwise
reply
My take on Blooms take is that: Bloom isn’t against kindness, he against empathy as a fuzzy emotion that frames the effectiveness and kindness actions. He is saying it is unreliable and leads to unkind outcomes by inherent bias.
I believe bloom is arguing that the kindest action is probably one without the bias of believing you understand another’s experience. A certain empathy can cloud one’s judgement, especially if it is based on incorrect understanding. You see this played out where say, a socially liberal person proposes a “kind” policy, but this policy is turns out to be exploited. The socially conservative folks then argue against the kindness of the policy; but that was not the problem. The problem is optimization for the wrong metric with regard to the policy. It wasn’t exploited due to kindness, it was exploited due to effectiveness (rules, enforcement, implementation detail).
Social policy must be assessed on both effectiveness (factoring in cost, time and relation to other methods), acceptability by participants (no workers or no customers = no business) and kindness (societal acceptance, purpose).
reply
JBP is by no means perfect, especially when it comes to his social media presence as @elvismercury pointed out, but his views and his work stand on solid ground, imo.
I boil this issue down to a case of people reacting to their own reflection in the mirror that JBP is presenting to them. If intelligentsia are upset with JBP, a member of the intelligentsia himself, then they are likely upset that he holds contrary views or has reached a level of success that they themselves have not managed to reach. Either that, or it's just good publicity to opine about anything related to JBP.
reply
the envy explanation?
Alright, kinda checks out
reply
I mean I don't see the sense in overintellectualizing it. People make emotional decisions and the media leverages that.
reply
At a recent conference where academics and industry partners were attempting to integrate with the military education, I received a pitch from a group that included a clinical psychologist as one of it's members. After receiving their pitch and with some time to spare, I asked the group their opinion of JBP, since he is a highly controversial figure that is often disparaged by academics. They confirmed (in private) that the negative view of JBP is not based on their reasoned disagreement, but purely political and dogmatic hatred.
I have found that like bitcoin, critics of JBP don't address his arguments, but just attack the man because of his association with the political right. When I ask the classic Thomas Sowell critical thinking questions (Compared to What? At What Costs? What Hard evidence do you have?), they typically resort to emotion and polemical talking points verses intellectual honest debate. It's quite sad because I would love to engage with a steel man argument with his ideas, verses the typical CNN-level strawman arguments that are out there.
reply
Very much indeed. Thank you for you anecdote :)
reply
Did the unwashed masses take to zarathustra's message? No they were too focused on consumption, the status quo, nihilistic pursuits to chase away any discomfort, it was only the few disaffected with the system who heard him
reply