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0 sats \ 12 replies \ @BlokchainB 8h \ parent \ on: Are Most Bitcoiners Statists? bitcoin
But that is my biggest beef. No one is forcing you to pay for schooling you find terrible. You aren’t living in North Korea. You can renounce your citizenship and lose the good (food, water, energy) to not pay for the bad (taxes going to a morally bankrupt school system)
In free societies the choice is yours. You can quit your job and completely liberate yourself from anything you don’t like about the state.
You have a society today where people are absolutely opposed on many issues. There really is no compromise or middle ground. The way my brain works is to think about solutions to this. The political method is one attempt but we seem to moving towards violence instead of away from it. I think this is largely due to the state.
One side gets power and lords it over the other. Then the other side gains power and does the same. I'd love to see a gradual move away from this. Focus on common ground. Shrink the state's influence over the people. Let them localize solutions.
It doesn't seem like you are interested in this sadly. We have a golden opportunity right now as gov spending is being exposed. Both those happy about the cuts and those mad about them. As you say, we aren't in NK. We can voluntarily fund most things pretty easily today. Most of USAID stuff people are talking about could be done without taxes directly by the people. What's wrong with that. You don't just jump to the hardest problem first like national defense.
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The political method is one attempt but we seem to moving towards violence instead of away from it. I think this is largely due to the state.
I disagree. Humans are inherently selfish and violent. Kids come out the womb hitting, lying, and wanting to claim everything as if they own it despite only having a few years of age.
Shrink the state's influence over the people. Let them localize solutions.
Sure this works in a utopia. The real world doesn’t function this way. Everyone is at each others throats to gain access of the same things. Food, water, energy, power and influence. Plus ideals like the one I quoted above ignore human nature of greed, jealousy, and envy.
As soon as this little community will prosper all it takes is another band of humans who don’t care about your way of thinking and have complete dominion over you.
I agree with you government hasn’t gotten way to large but I don’t understand why we have to eliminate everything about government when bitcoin the tech every libertarian rallies around is a product of tons of government investment and research.
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Come on man you know that's BS. You are straw manning again like you read nothing I wrote. My choice is leave my family and culture and if I don't what? I can't think that things should be different? I never said this was NK. Personally I choose to live here as many people do. Many are not 100% pleased with how it is. Are you 100% happy with how the government acts? Do you support all their actions? I highly doubt that.
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Of course not the government is outta control. The concept of America died with JFK. And American men are so cucked we put up with this terrible government and believe in possible revolutionary ideas like bitcoin but yet become captured by material gain.
It’s so odd to me that bitcoiners say proof of work about this or that but completely write off the good the state has done for humanity. Governance is a very complex problem that humanity has yet to solve.
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I thought the state was just people. If so... why do you not say the good the people have done?
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I do!! Look at how easy and convenient life is.
- Stores full of food
- Justice for crime committed that don’t cause you to go bankrupt
- Access to water
- Access to power
- Access to internet
And so on.
People have this illusion that the free market solves everything and I think that’s a farce because it doesn’t account for opportunity cost.
Look at this AI bubble we are in. This is the free market pouring billions into a technology that they are hoping and praying pays off. As soon as one company gets a massive moat aka a natural monopoly it’s game over for all competitors.
And some fool will blame it on the state as to why they can’t develop the next algorithm to compete with the company with the largest moat.
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The free market is simply freedom. Millions of people making choices instead of a few at the top making those choices. In socialist economies you have the extreme centralization of choice and it leads to starvation. The US is one of the most liberal economies and we have prospered.
As a bitcoiner I would expect you'd get why there are tech bubbles. Cheap credit fuels the boom and bust cycles. Yeah, its a free market but the money isn't a free market. Cheap easy money amplifies speculation and encourages certain behaviors.
When you have a monopoly actor in any space they are able to tip the scales for good or ill. There are times when a powerful state can do a good thing but like the ring of power in Tolkien's books its a massive temptation.
The free market doesn't solve everything. People solve problems. The free market is simply trusting those people at scale to figure it out. Few seem to understand the price system, subjective value, and appreciate how amazing freedom really is. Its rare. I'm very thankful to be born in the US at this time but when I look around I see far too many blaming every problem on "capitalism". Seemingly looking to socialist ideas for answers and giving more and more of their autonomy to the state.
I'm not utopian. I believe man is more with evil in his heart. But rather than thinking this is why we need a state, I think this is why I don't want to make this big juicy target for these people to aim for.
Ron Paul is someone that is a statist and I respect him. He was also a politician. His ideas hit me hard before bitcoin was created. I like to find common ground with people. Most of my friends and family do not share my views but I'm well respected and get along great with most people. That said, I have watched people's minds open to the possibilities for a more free and prosperous future.
You talk about all the amazing things we have. I say that is due to freedom, a strong culture, and stability. I wonder how much more prosperity we could have if we could expand the ideas of liberty and freedom even more. I'm not in favor of libertine. Of throwing morals to the wind. I think another aspect of the prosperity we experience is the influence of Christianity on our world. But that again is freedom.
So I agree with you. The free market doesn't fix everything but its pretty amazing.
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I agree with your take here. But even during the days of hard money natural monopolies form because human time is scarce.
I think it the railroad barrons of the 19th and 20th century before the central bank was put into place in 1913 and ruined the common persons opportunity to save for the future.
But yes I believe in people being self- governing and not having the state meddling in our lives every single day.
But on the flip side I often think bitcoiners haven’t experienced the ugly side of humanity. Especially in the west. The amount of frauds and scams that go on in America today is truly disgusting. People on mass are morally bankrupt. Instead of being a nation that worshiped god it’s been replaced with money and politics and it shows.
Even in the bitcoin community I see this elite class forming. While I have nothing against clases as no two humans are a like so it’s impossible to have equal outcomes but we can still criticize the elites when they do dumb things.
Appreciate the back and forth @BlokchainB. We don't share all the same ideas but we have some common ground. I'm all for voting with your feet but there are many factors to consider for me personally. If I had a place to go that worked better for me I'd go there for sure. My thoughts are more about how do we figure out how to get along in a better way with our fellow man. How do we best organize and I'm pretty sure we have yet to figure it out. I know it isn't socialism. I'm pretty sure the nation state isn't the answer either. Maybe private voluntary communities in a free market driven world would work.
There are people trying it so only time will tell.
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Personally and practically I want to be a part of building better systems like bitcoin. I'm not working on the code but I'm a user and try to help in ways I can. I try to increase my own resilience through many avenues. I'm active in my community. It is easy to sit around and complain and do nothing positive. Its easy to passively wait for the government to fix things. For those of us in bitcoin we should understand that its better to build a better system and future than just try to tear down the existing one.
But, there is still value in seeking to understand why the system today has issues and what parts of it work. That's what I try to do.
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People need a common ground or understanding if not forming a voluntary communities for more freedom feels like a fantasy.
Freedom from taxes, wokeism, like where does it end?