Are Most Bitcoiners Statists? \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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1133 sats \ 57 comments \ @kepford 10h bitcoin

Please don't take offense to this if you believe in the moral rightness of the existence of the modern state. I don't mean it as a slur, its just the best way to describe the opposite of an anarchist or voluntarist, people that believe in a voluntary society without an artificial monopoly on the use of violence.

I think the fact that many bitcoiners value liberty to some degree and often tend to be libertarian in their views, it is easy to assume we are all opposed to the state. My time in bitcoin circles has shown that to be false. Sure there is a much higher proportion of anti-state people in bitcoin than in the normal population, but we are not the majority. That's the sense I get at least.

Bitcoin's lure is far more broad than liberty and self sovereignty. The number of people that value these things for others is incredibly small. They exist but its a tiny number. Most people are NPCs. Some are just asleep. Others are on journeys of discovery and maybe they can be reached.

Since Trump won the election in the US I have noticed many articles trying to throw cold water on the people happy about his win and the changes he's been making over the past few weeks. I think a big mistake many are making is assuming these people have been seduced by Trump. Maybe that's true but I don't think most of these people were opposed to the state before Trump. Trump is just a different animal. A bull in a china shop doing some things many people have wanted for decades. He's not ideological, moral, or principled.

Like the left these bitcoiners just want their way. They want big daddy government to make the world in the way they want it to be. Its a journey. I wasn't born with all the ideas I now hold. I don't think its persuasive or smart to assume your fellow bitcoiners are like you in their views on the state. They probably are much closer to traditional conservatives than anarchists.

With all that said, I think far too few people seek to find common ground with others. I may not seem to value this on SN but let me assure you that in person I very much seek common ground with those around me.

Some of you need to hear this. We will never have a society where everyone agrees on anywhere near to everything. Sure, some things like murder are pretty agreed upon but I bet you are thinking of examples of disagreements on how to handle it.

So keep that in mind. Bitcoin isn't going to turn everyone into a mirror image of your beliefs. Stay humble. We need the people around us. We don't need millions of clones.

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95 sats \ 2 replies \ @freetx 8h

Trump is just a different animal. A bull in a china shop doing some things many people have wanted for decades. He's not ideological, moral, or principled.

I once heard Victor Davis Hanson describe Trump as analogous to The Searchers movie, which I thought was particularly smart.

For those that don't know, The Searchers is an old western starring John Wayne as the title role.....he is a middle-aged ex-civil war vet. He has a somewhat dubious background and been something of a loner, never really that well accepted by his family / town.

A young girl gets kidnapped by the Comanche and he goes off looking for her....in the end, by using his fighting skills and propensity for violence, he is able to save her and bring her back home. He sort of expects that the town / family is going to swoon over him and this will be his great redemption.

Upon bringing the girl back to town, people quickly thank him yet are clearly eager to be rid of him....the movie ends with him watching the celebration for the girls home-coming from the street thru the open window....its obvious he was just a "hired gun".

I think that really describes how many people view Trump, yes his ego is out of control, yes he can be boorish and absurd at times, but this is the qualities needed to dismantle the current failed state. Trump is our hired gun.

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 8h

Its a good analogy. Not surprised its from Hanson.

9 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 7h

damn Indians, I mean native Americans

They could have traded alcohol for hostages but that would be less exciting

78 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined 9h

I'd be shocked if they weren't mostly statists.

What I'm encouraged by is how prevalent each of our political views are (if not the entire bundle) and how open people are to hearing them out. That's a huge difference.

One of the first things that struck me about SN is that while there is a lot of viewpoint diversity, views like mine and yours are often the norm (again, talking about on particular topics not the whole set).

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 9h

What I'm encouraged by is how prevalent each of our political views are (if not the entire bundle) and how open people are to hearing them out. That's a huge difference.

Yes! I think that is largely due to bitcoin being against the orthodox views of society. Those that are drawn to it will likely be more comfortable with novelty in general. This aligns with people with differing views or open minds. The bitcoin space has a much lower level of NPCs than any other circle I've been in.

67 sats \ 5 replies \ @Aardvark 9h

As far as my own experience goes. Pre Bitcoin I used to be fully a statist by every definition of the word. Now, I know the state is immoral, but I don't really see a particular way out of it. I still pay attention to politics, because like it or not, they effect my daily life.

I just kind of hope for the best, and try to make the most moral decisions I can while being stuck within the framework around me.

41 sats \ 4 replies \ @kepford OP 9h

Yeah... I don't know of a way out of it. I basically think we need to build an alternative society... prepare for the collapse of the system. It will happen, just a matter of time.

You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete

~ Bucky Fuller

Remind you of something? Bitcoin is the base but not the only component. This is why bitcoin is so hopeful to me. So much of the state's power is in its control over fiat money.

40 sats \ 3 replies \ @Aardvark 9h

I think this is what makes bitcoin so powerful. If the system collapses then bitcoin will be all that's left, and if it doesn't collapse, it will be stronger than anything the system has ever produced.

It's a hedge against living.

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @optimism 7h

Remember to live a little, tho. Hedging is boring.

Bottom line I'd wish for everyone to have found their life more meaningful than the inheritance they leave behind. Preferably by a factor 10 or more.

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @Aardvark 7h

I've already had a lot of fun. Time to take a little break and save for a while. 😁

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @optimism 7h

Work hard party hard!

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49 sats \ 1 reply \ @Shugard 9h

Since most people are statists and there are a lot of new and old bitcoiners who are here for the profits, sure I would say there are a lot of bitcoin statists.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 9h

Yep. I know this is probably obvious to many of us... I just get the sense far too many people have a false idea about the makeup of the bitcoin space. I say this based on their surprise by the Trump support and many other things.

85 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 10h

Some people and even bitcoiners are statists without even knowing what they are...

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 9h

One fish said the other fish, "The water is warm today". The other fish said, "What's water?".

45 sats \ 1 reply \ @Butterfinger 4h

People are very ancap when it's about their money, and if that's not the case they are totally broken.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 4h

There in lies the problem of the state. Most Americans LOVE the gov spending on stuff they like, its just the stuff they don't like that they wanna stop. But there's so many differing opinions that we get all of it.

The simple solution is just remove anything gov spending on anything that isn't uniformly loved. Make everything else private and voluntary. There's much more to it but that's the basic idea. The market provides much better solutions.

57 sats \ 16 replies \ @BlokchainB 6h

What I hate about this framing is the idea that the state is the faceless shapeless entity that we have no control over and you must bend to its will or perish. But in reality the state is nothing but people.

Politics is just war by other means. A way for humans to boss each other around for better or for worse. I fell out of favor out of with libertarian ideals because this idea that all humans can mutually agree on what’s right and what’s not is fleeting. All it takes is one psychopath to completely destroy that way of governance.

Plus I don’t take any libertarians who enjoy life in a stable government seriously . If such person lived if a failed state where it was a daily struggle just to get food and water 99% of them would beg for the state to save them from their misery. Plus anyone who truly wants to be free no government is stoping them from leaving their country and finding self sovereignty on some undeveloped land and live your ideals out there. But don’t be surprised as soon as another nation can take advantage of you they will.

80 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 5h

Your comment is good for a few reasons so please don't take this as an attack. I think many share your view and experience based on my experience. I share them as you are expressing thoughts I have and have had. Here's some food for thought though.

Many of the changes being enacted today are coming from the liberty movement. Its a big tent full of libertarians, small state minarchists like Ron Paul(Someone that is also a statist but one I have massive respect for), and anarchists. I firmly believe we need people on many sides pushing their ideas. Bad ones should fall to the side and good ones which time has not come should not die. They may have to be refined.

I'm not a utilitarian but the utility of ideas does matter to me. What do I mean? Well slavery might work for the slave owner but I'm morally opposed to it. Here's the deal, slavery actually can be argued to make society more poor. Even for those that are not slaves. I believe the same is true of the state. Communism is the most extreme example and we have seen how that plays out. What we see in western democracies is different in levels of degree but there are still massive issues around the rights of the individual and the manipulation of the free exchange of property and ideas. I hope that in time humanity will learn from our mistakes but I'm no utopian. One might have described freedom to a man living under communism and be called a utopian. Personally I think the folks from the WEF are the utopians, not the liberty movement.

48 sats \ 13 replies \ @kepford OP 6h

I fell out of favor out of with libertarian ideals because this idea that all humans can mutually agree on what’s right and what’s not is fleeting. All it takes is one psychopath to completely destroy that way of governance.

I mean... that's utopian. I reject this idea. Freedom of association. I just don't get how the state fixes this. It seems to do the opposite. Force people into one system. Centralize power so that groups seek to control the central entity.

What we should seek is a society where we can agree to disagree. Privatize schools for example. I don't have my money stolen to pay for education I find morally evil. And visa versa, others should not be forced to pay for things others want. Make it voluntary. This is the core battle over and over again. The state is like the most massive single provider that lacks market competition and has the "right" to kill those that oppose it.

0 sats \ 12 replies \ @BlokchainB 5h

But that is my biggest beef. No one is forcing you to pay for schooling you find terrible. You aren’t living in North Korea. You can renounce your citizenship and lose the good (food, water, energy) to not pay for the bad (taxes going to a morally bankrupt school system)

In free societies the choice is yours. You can quit your job and completely liberate yourself from anything you don’t like about the state.

80 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 4h

You have a society today where people are absolutely opposed on many issues. There really is no compromise or middle ground. The way my brain works is to think about solutions to this. The political method is one attempt but we seem to moving towards violence instead of away from it. I think this is largely due to the state.

One side gets power and lords it over the other. Then the other side gains power and does the same. I'd love to see a gradual move away from this. Focus on common ground. Shrink the state's influence over the people. Let them localize solutions.

It doesn't seem like you are interested in this sadly. We have a golden opportunity right now as gov spending is being exposed. Both those happy about the cuts and those mad about them. As you say, we aren't in NK. We can voluntarily fund most things pretty easily today. Most of USAID stuff people are talking about could be done without taxes directly by the people. What's wrong with that. You don't just jump to the hardest problem first like national defense.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 4h

The political method is one attempt but we seem to moving towards violence instead of away from it. I think this is largely due to the state.

I disagree. Humans are inherently selfish and violent. Kids come out the womb hitting, lying, and wanting to claim everything as if they own it despite only having a few years of age.

Shrink the state's influence over the people. Let them localize solutions.

Sure this works in a utopia. The real world doesn’t function this way. Everyone is at each others throats to gain access of the same things. Food, water, energy, power and influence. Plus ideals like the one I quoted above ignore human nature of greed, jealousy, and envy.

As soon as this little community will prosper all it takes is another band of humans who don’t care about your way of thinking and have complete dominion over you.

I agree with you government hasn’t gotten way to large but I don’t understand why we have to eliminate everything about government when bitcoin the tech every libertarian rallies around is a product of tons of government investment and research.

54 sats \ 9 replies \ @kepford OP 5h

Come on man you know that's BS. You are straw manning again like you read nothing I wrote. My choice is leave my family and culture and if I don't what? I can't think that things should be different? I never said this was NK. Personally I choose to live here as many people do. Many are not 100% pleased with how it is. Are you 100% happy with how the government acts? Do you support all their actions? I highly doubt that.

0 sats \ 8 replies \ @BlokchainB 4h

Of course not the government is outta control. The concept of America died with JFK. And American men are so cucked we put up with this terrible government and believe in possible revolutionary ideas like bitcoin but yet become captured by material gain.

It’s so odd to me that bitcoiners say proof of work about this or that but completely write off the good the state has done for humanity. Governance is a very complex problem that humanity has yet to solve.

86 sats \ 7 replies \ @kepford OP 4h

I thought the state was just people. If so... why do you not say the good the people have done?

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 6h

What I hate about this framing is the idea that the state is the faceless shapeless entity that we have no control over and you must bend to its will or perish. But in reality the state is nothing but people.

This is true. But also the state is an idea. An ideal that people believe in and that is the real threat. That outlives people. Think of this as a social protocol that has its own set of incentives. Some of us do not believe in the state as an ideal. We believe it is evil. It is a powerful entity given power by belief. Given power by people sacrificing their life force to it.

Plus I don’t take any libertarians who enjoy life in a stable government seriously . If such person lived if a failed state where it was a daily struggle just to get food and water 99% of them would beg for the state to save them from their misery. Plus anyone who truly wants to be free no government is stoping them from leaving their country and finding self sovereignty on some undeveloped land and live your ideals out there. But don’t be surprised as soon as another nation can take advantage of you they will.

With respect, you are describing many libertarians and also pretty much all people. People on the left. People on the right. I stopped calling myself a libertarian a long time ago as well but it wasn't due to the ideas as much as the people. Its such a massive tent of ideas and I do not prescribe to many of them. I'm not a libertine. I believe in law. I believe governance has value.

All that said, you are creating a straw man here. You seem to be assuming that people do not understand that a little poison may not kill you but more will indeed kill you. You also seem to be confusing chaos with freedom. I often say the USA and most of the prosperous nations are prosperous due to free markets. Would you agree? Prosperity is not coming from the state. Governance is required. The state fill many roles that are required for modern society. Very few libertarians reject the idea of governance. They simply suggest that governance should be a free market, not a monopoly decided by violence.

An interesting observation is those communist nations that received more freedom. Look at how much better their lives have become. Just as more centralized intervention leads to less prosperity more prosperity come from more freedom.

I think you are missing the point of this post though. As I said, statism is simply a category. A frame if you will. When I think about the goal, I think about finding ways to avoid violence. Not excuse it. There are many aspects of our current world that I love, many that are terrible. We need different perspectives. I'm not the type to take my ball and go home. I value living in a society. I just don't believe we are setting our goals high enough.

57 sats \ 1 reply \ @nout 7h

Yes. Statistically.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 6h

Was there a survey? I'll say this. The bitcoin world is a much better place than any other place as far as its relation to the state.

65 sats \ 1 reply \ @SimpleStacker 7h

I don't know if you would consider me a statist. I believe that a stateless society is ahistorical and unlikely to ever come about or be stable for a long period of time.

But I think a good state is one that is limited in powers and sees itself as having a limited role in peoples' lives

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 7h

Yep, Nightwatch state. Minarchist. Statist. All fit that IMO. But that's fine. I'm very skeptical of a stateless society arising any time soon. If it is possible it is like generations away.

That said, most of our interactions are stateless. I believe it's possible just not anywhere near being likely in the foreseeable future. I think what you want is pretty close to what the US was at its founding and we see where it led.

I think Bitcoin will have to take over the world before we see a stateless world.

58 sats \ 1 reply \ @Bell_curve 9h

NPC or non player cunts

Too many SN members are strident leftists or utopian.

9 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 9h

Too many SN members are strident leftists or utopian.

You repeat yourself.

172 sats \ 5 replies \ @Lux 9h

Yes, but we are all programmed from day one.

The state is a legal fiction, a creature of the law, a creature of words and people.

Not knowing the basics of law, words and people, is a very dangerous thing.

42 sats \ 3 replies \ @kepford OP 9h

He's the question for you @Lux. How do you de-program others? How did you de-program yourself? Its something I've thought about for years.

172 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 9h

How did you de-program yourself?

Also count the environment/regime you lived in the past, education in family you got, your beliefs etc.

For me I could say that was easier than a guy living his whole life in US, because I lived decades in communism and those harsh conditions "trained" me somehow to distrust almost anything that comes from outside family.

Later, reading more books and got more education in this matter (freedom) all started to make sense much easier and my mind changed very quickly from a clueless normie (but still state hater) into an educated and trained sovereign individual. Yes, indeed took me several years to be prepared and even today I still find new things in this matter.

But the whole thing start in your mind. If you do not change the chip of your mind, you will never get it. You will be forever a slave for the state.

9 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 9h

Also count the environment/regime you lived in the past, education in family you got, your beliefs etc.

Yep. It gets passed down. Some of us are just wired to question stuff, not all of us though. I just can't leave stuff alone. I drove my parents nuts asking questions and questions they didn't want to think about. I'm still like that but I've learned to manage it lol.

48 sats \ 0 replies \ @Lux 9h

Me too.

A teacher told me usually it takes 7 to 10 years of learning and the majority doesn't make it.

But I also like The hundredth monkey effect :)

9 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 9h

Of course, government schools, media, and books... propaganda all the time. Without this the state would die.

58 sats \ 3 replies \ @Lumor 9h

Most people are NPCs.

This is the issue that brings me back to the state. If we can't awaken the NPC majority, we need to prevent them from messing too much with our minority.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford OP 9h

Nah, my view is different. As the plebs become more powerful through wealth, health, and wisdom the NPCs will follow. That's what they do. They flow with the tides both good and bad. Don't worry about them basically.

59 sats \ 1 reply \ @Lumor 9h

In the long run, maybe. In the meantime they will continue to be weaponized against us.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 9h

As has been the case for decades

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @Akg10s3 9h

I liked this phrase...

"An elephant in a china shop that does some things that many people have wanted for decades. It is not ideological, moral or has principles"..

And if it is necessary to have a community or to be able to exchange ideas with other people who think differently or are not in the burrow..

Especially because there is a high probability that I can change your negative thinking about Bitcoin and even your mind will be freed!

Based on Humility ⚡

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @a40ecaacec 8h

Statists/NGU-ers/Fiat maxis

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @kruw 5h

Please don't take offense to this if you believe in the moral rightness of the existence of the modern state. I don't mean it as a slur

You should be trying to offend these people. Don't start with moral negotiation, be proud of your ideological purity.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford OP 5h

Did you read the post? Apparently not. I'm not proud of my ideological purity lol. That's pathetic. Its easy to insult and offend. Believe me, I'm good at it. We share this planet will all types of people and its in our best interest to learn how to share it in peace( I don't mean in the violence commie way either) and be prosperous.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @kruw 4h

We share this planet will all types of people and its in our best interest to learn how to share it in peace

Yes, those types of people include parasites. Never make peace with parasites, that's the only way they can win.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 4h

So you are blaming the parasites instead of the theft that stole in the first place? Don't fall for that trap. The state creates this situation. The state has no incentive to solve it.

But I wasn't talking about parasites. I was talking about people that think differently. Plenty are not happy with the state and what it does. But they only have issue with the things they don't like.

If you wanna make change you need to find common ground. You don't have to care though.. that's the nice thing. Don't worry about it then.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 5h

Yeah. Trump might end up pumping our bags but after 4 years its likely we go back to being attacked. Best to continue ignoring the noise and simply live your life.