pull down to refresh
54 sats \ 9 replies \ @kepford OP 7h \ parent \ on: Are Most Bitcoiners Statists? bitcoin
Come on man you know that's BS. You are straw manning again like you read nothing I wrote. My choice is leave my family and culture and if I don't what? I can't think that things should be different? I never said this was NK. Personally I choose to live here as many people do. Many are not 100% pleased with how it is. Are you 100% happy with how the government acts? Do you support all their actions? I highly doubt that.
Of course not the government is outta control. The concept of America died with JFK. And American men are so cucked we put up with this terrible government and believe in possible revolutionary ideas like bitcoin but yet become captured by material gain.
It’s so odd to me that bitcoiners say proof of work about this or that but completely write off the good the state has done for humanity. Governance is a very complex problem that humanity has yet to solve.
reply
I thought the state was just people. If so... why do you not say the good the people have done?
reply
I do!! Look at how easy and convenient life is.
- Stores full of food
- Justice for crime committed that don’t cause you to go bankrupt
- Access to water
- Access to power
- Access to internet
And so on.
People have this illusion that the free market solves everything and I think that’s a farce because it doesn’t account for opportunity cost.
Look at this AI bubble we are in. This is the free market pouring billions into a technology that they are hoping and praying pays off. As soon as one company gets a massive moat aka a natural monopoly it’s game over for all competitors.
And some fool will blame it on the state as to why they can’t develop the next algorithm to compete with the company with the largest moat.
reply
The free market is simply freedom. Millions of people making choices instead of a few at the top making those choices. In socialist economies you have the extreme centralization of choice and it leads to starvation. The US is one of the most liberal economies and we have prospered.
As a bitcoiner I would expect you'd get why there are tech bubbles. Cheap credit fuels the boom and bust cycles. Yeah, its a free market but the money isn't a free market. Cheap easy money amplifies speculation and encourages certain behaviors.
When you have a monopoly actor in any space they are able to tip the scales for good or ill. There are times when a powerful state can do a good thing but like the ring of power in Tolkien's books its a massive temptation.
The free market doesn't solve everything. People solve problems. The free market is simply trusting those people at scale to figure it out. Few seem to understand the price system, subjective value, and appreciate how amazing freedom really is. Its rare. I'm very thankful to be born in the US at this time but when I look around I see far too many blaming every problem on "capitalism". Seemingly looking to socialist ideas for answers and giving more and more of their autonomy to the state.
I'm not utopian. I believe man is more with evil in his heart. But rather than thinking this is why we need a state, I think this is why I don't want to make this big juicy target for these people to aim for.
Ron Paul is someone that is a statist and I respect him. He was also a politician. His ideas hit me hard before bitcoin was created. I like to find common ground with people. Most of my friends and family do not share my views but I'm well respected and get along great with most people. That said, I have watched people's minds open to the possibilities for a more free and prosperous future.
You talk about all the amazing things we have. I say that is due to freedom, a strong culture, and stability. I wonder how much more prosperity we could have if we could expand the ideas of liberty and freedom even more. I'm not in favor of libertine. Of throwing morals to the wind. I think another aspect of the prosperity we experience is the influence of Christianity on our world. But that again is freedom.
So I agree with you. The free market doesn't fix everything but its pretty amazing.
reply
I agree with your take here. But even during the days of hard money natural monopolies form because human time is scarce.
I think it the railroad barrons of the 19th and 20th century before the central bank was put into place in 1913 and ruined the common persons opportunity to save for the future.
But yes I believe in people being self- governing and not having the state meddling in our lives every single day.
But on the flip side I often think bitcoiners haven’t experienced the ugly side of humanity. Especially in the west. The amount of frauds and scams that go on in America today is truly disgusting. People on mass are morally bankrupt. Instead of being a nation that worshiped god it’s been replaced with money and politics and it shows.
Even in the bitcoin community I see this elite class forming. While I have nothing against clases as no two humans are a like so it’s impossible to have equal outcomes but we can still criticize the elites when they do dumb things.
reply
But on the flip side I often think bitcoiners haven’t experienced the ugly side of humanity. Especially in the west.
Amen. I believe this is largely due to how good we have it. Unpopular opinion in the US... but I think one of the biggest reasons for US prosperity is due to the US being a late entry into WW2 and simply having the most resources at the end with the least losses of any of the powers. I think this and fairly free markets explain the boom of the 50s.
American's are very naive and are far more trusting than people from other nations in my experience. That is changing though as our culture declines in trust and shared values. We are in agreement on the shift away from God and worshiping money and politics. It has even infected the churches to a large degree.
Speaking of free markets and other factors that have led to prosperity and this world we take for granted. I'm not Catholic but I consider them my brothers and sisters in the Lord. How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization is an excellent book and even as a person with a deep interest in church history I learned many things. The impact of the Church is underappreciated even by Christians. Many of the things we take for granted were started by the church.
Appreciate the back and forth @BlokchainB. We don't share all the same ideas but we have some common ground. I'm all for voting with your feet but there are many factors to consider for me personally. If I had a place to go that worked better for me I'd go there for sure. My thoughts are more about how do we figure out how to get along in a better way with our fellow man. How do we best organize and I'm pretty sure we have yet to figure it out. I know it isn't socialism. I'm pretty sure the nation state isn't the answer either. Maybe private voluntary communities in a free market driven world would work.
There are people trying it so only time will tell.
Edit:
Personally and practically I want to be a part of building better systems like bitcoin. I'm not working on the code but I'm a user and try to help in ways I can. I try to increase my own resilience through many avenues. I'm active in my community. It is easy to sit around and complain and do nothing positive. Its easy to passively wait for the government to fix things. For those of us in bitcoin we should understand that its better to build a better system and future than just try to tear down the existing one.
But, there is still value in seeking to understand why the system today has issues and what parts of it work. That's what I try to do.
reply
People need a common ground or understanding if not forming a voluntary communities for more freedom feels like a fantasy.
Freedom from taxes, wokeism, like where does it end?
reply
Yes they do need common ground and understanding. That's the point...
The drive for more diversity for diversity sake is a fools errand and seems more and more like a fantasy to me. The whole point of a a voluntary community is that people would CHOOSE to live near people of like mind. I mean... its really just the idea of nations but on a smaller scale. Its an old idea really. Its also being tried in several places already.
Old examples are the Amish but the private cities movement is more liberty minded example. In many ways we saw this voting with your feet thing happen during Covid as well. The US states are not libertarian but several states have zero income tax.
I think when people talk about anarchism they envision some utopia where everyone is living in a hippie commune. That would exist I'm sure and go up in flames. Most people don't want that including me. But currently people are so limited in their thinking due to only hearing from the Ds and the Rs.