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@yo2xncv0
stacking since: #227859
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @yo2xncv0 29 Nov \ parent \ on: Which country will be the first to adopt a Monero Standard? bitcoin
I know you're joking, but agree with your point. Tor was a government project too.
I'm not saying I believe Bitcoin/internet/tor is necessarily co-opted because of that. My point is if someone wants to make these claims, ok, well lets be consistent and see what that line of logic leads us to conclude about Bitcoin.
I wish there was too. But I don't find tiny short-term fluctuations much of a problem. The difference is negligible in hours/days/weeks. Sometimes Monero does better and sometimes worse at those small time scales so it basically cancels out if you're always doing it.
There are years and months where Monero does better even. All of 2022 it outperformed Bitcoin and May-September of this year it also did better (~6 months)
"I hope that the aforementioned Bitcoiners would be kind enough to exchange all the Bitcoin they own for Monero and in that way be consistent with their idea"
Hey I'm just answering the question you asked
Different tools for different jobs. They have different disadvantages of course so I don't see any hypocrisy in using both at what they excel in (Bitcoin is not great for private transactions). The same way a hammer isn't ideal to use on screws.
I'm a pragmatist and will use what I find useful for the task. If Bitcoin figures out better privacy layers that are clearly better than Monero, including sovereign UX, I'll be glad to use them. But that just isn't the case right now.
OP is not talking about holding Monero though. And Monero is much better than Wasabi for privacy/anonymity.
Downsides of Wasabi vs Monero to "clean" their Bitcoin:
-Largest inputs in a round have less privacy
-It doesn't hide amounts or doesn't even have uniform amounts (users potentially vulnerable to amount analysis)
-Much smaller anonymity set especially for recievers
-Liquidity isn't shared between different coordinators afaik so it fractures anonymity set instead of having a single large global pool like Monero
Yes, with caveats.
-Swap using no-KYC p2p using Bisq or Haveno
-On the way back to Bitcoin (XMR -> BTC) you need to break it up into different amounts and swap at different times (don't swap it all back in one shot and don't consolidate it all together afterwards)
Tor is already built-in by default for Bisq and Haveno
You can also just buy Bitcoin directly and anonymously on them for fiat money
Because Monero has the transactional privacy that Bitcoin lacks, and was promised, and carries the orginal cypherpunk spirit. If it wasnt for NGU most Bitcoin maxis would probably be Monero guys.
You can't see amounts or addresses on Moneros blockchain
Some high profile Bitcoiner quotes:
"Monero is a very good privacy complement to Bitcoin" -Nick Szabo
"I looked at all the other major cryptocurrencies that had adjustable blocksizes and the only one that I thought that didn't completely suck was Monero" -Jameson Lopp
"Maybe you need a Monero" -Michael Saylor
"For really strong privacy, Monero is much better" -Andreas Antonopoulos
"There's a lot of advantages to using Monero" -Matt Odell
"Monero is the only goddamn currency that's used!" -John McAfee
"Monero will be a champion in that space and we'll have a Bitcoin-Monero duopoly" -Max Keiser
"All fiat systems and all tokens outside of Bitcoin and monero (to my knowledge) have middlemen you cannot get rid of" -Adam Curry
"I would say Monero is not a shitcoin. I think it's a very innovative and new research project that works." -Max Hillbrand
"Monero; Just use it. Objectively it's better than Bitcoin [for privacy]...it's obvious" -Amir Taaki
"Monero is closer to our hearts than whatever Bitcoin is turning into today" -Samourai Wallet
"Bitcoin is the reserve currency. Hold it. Privacy coins are transactional privacy. Use them...Monero" -Balaji
"99% of cryptocurrencies are complete and total garbage, but even among the upper echeleon of real ones, Monero is in the top percentile, so it deserves our respect" -Paul Sztorc
"Surprising number of Monero lovers on #Nostr. It’s the only altcoin that I consider has a community of actual cypherpunks with similarly aligned values as bitcoin." -Guy Swann
"Monero has always been the altcoin outlier for me, never a shitcoin because I have a valid use for it that I can't achieve with #bitcoin." -Peter McCormack
"I have an issue when Bitcoiners get so closed-minded and says Moneros a shitcoin. No it's not. There's some brilliant people there and there's a lot to learn...I'm a fan of Monero." -Nicholas Gregory of Mercury Layer
"Cashu isn't an alternative to Monero. Monero is cool." -Calle
"To me Monero is the litmus test in Bitcoin...Monero is such a good money just technically" -Ragnar Lifthrasir of Guns N Bitcoin
"There are altcoins out there that have interesting ideas, but they are very very rare...if a couple altcoins exist, like Monero, where they actually have an interesting idea and a different model that's fine." -Peter Todd
"Monero is doing the job that gave btc its start." -Ray Youssef
It's definitely better than using Bitcoin by default but you're overstating it's untraceablility
-Largest inputs in a round have less privacy
-It doesn't hide amounts or doesn't even have uniform amounts (users potentially vulnerable to amount analysis)
-Much smaller anonymity set especially for recievers
-Liquidity isn't shared between different coordinators afaik so it fractures anonymity set instead of having one global pool like Monero
They are vague about the details.
Most likely got them as they left Monero (offramping onto an exchange or naively swapping in and out of transparent crypto) like all these articles claiming to have "traced" Monero.
Makes for good clickbait though
Did you watch the video?
First part has the Chainalysis agent in awe of how private Monero is. The rest of the video is him being very unconfident and admitting it was mostly guess work and probability.
Required the victim to use a malicious node controlled by Chainalysis and not using a VPN or TOR to hide their IP. Basically a network level attack. And in the end nothing was conclusive.
He still couldn't see how much Monero was being sent or who this person was sending to. If anything this highlighted the strong privacy Monero provides.
FCMP upgrade that is in the works will render even this edge case attack ineffective (assuming you are using your own node or TOR/VPN) since it gets rid of ring signatures and makes the sender a potential member of the entire chain instead of "only" having 15 decoys
I agree with you that it is wrong, unethical, and illogical. I'm just describing the facts of the current situation and likely worsening future.
I also like to use crypto for everyday payments. But it's more for ideological reasons like yourself. Spending Bitcoin on white markets for everyday transactions is such a tiny segment of people. Only the real believers will do that. It makes no sense for normal people to do it for multiple reasons (digital fiat is cheaper, faster, convenient, follows the rules of white markets, and widely accepted)
Bitcoin can only compete with government money if you are making the transactions they don't want you to (black market AKA free markets). If you are making transactions only under their rules on their markets they control, of course they are going to play unfairly and make it onerous to use there...they also use legal ambiguity to make businesses fearful
Addressing your Monero comment: That's true they don't care about privacy. But vast majority of people don't care about sovereignty, being free and responsibility that comes with it either. So I'm not concerned with them. Bitcoin and Monero will only ever appeal to a small group of freedom loving individuals (custodians and permissioned use doesnt count i.e. exchanges. I'm talking about really using it). And that's fine. It's a power we didn't have before.
Most don't understand the root of inflation either. It's obvious to us because we are immersed in this stuff and in a bubble. Ask the average Joe on the street and he either doesn't know or doesn't care about that stuff.
Agree that the EU can pound sand. I'm just saying when they get their way, the only escape is non-compliance via black markets (The true free markets). We see this all thru history when government clamps down.
Either way governments are not going down without a fight. Fiat dominance is an existential crisis for them and they'll do every dirty and violent thing they can to maintain it.
Saving with Bitcoin or any crypto on the white market doesn't protect your "investment" or "savings" (or only fleetingly so). Your savings are already being leeched from if you ever spend/trade it on the white market. Governments will continue increasing taxes to offset any savings (i.e. realized and unrealized capital gains taxes) or make any arbitrary rules they want. We already see them starting to do this.
At some point white market Bitcoin savings and transactions will be as manipulated as any other fiat/stock/financial instrument. They can even make it illegal to use "self-hosted" wallets (like legislation being proposed in Europe) and require you to leave your Bitcoin with "certified custodians" where they can print IOUs freely and rug you.
If you refuse any of this you are now in black market territory again.
Using white markets means you are relying on politics to secure your wealth yet again (defeats the entire advantage of Bitcoin). If you wanted to follow the rules, digital fiat money is already superior to Bitcoin at that.
Maybe not at this moment, but we're talking about the future. I expect both Bitcoin and Monero to grow over time and other layers to emerge. Obviously they wouldn't do half a billion at once, but broken up and over time, and smaller amounts for covert operations. The same way 3 letter agencies use Tor.
That wasn't an argument on the viability of anarchy. It was just a fact about Bitcoin. If its security and success is at the mercy of regulations then it failed it's entire value prop. We already have money backed by politics; it's called fiat
There is no advantage to making a Bitcoin transaction that follows the rules and is "regulatory friendly" and "compliant". Why not just use digital fiat for those transactions? It's the most rule following thing to use. Cheaper, faster, and has a much larger network effect than Bitcoin too. Bitcoin is black market money at it's core. All white market transactions are permissioned by definition.
"they will never be transparent. Government does not volunteer transparency" "I rather use Joinmarket and Coinjoins and a large anonymity set + lightning to achieve enough privacy"
I find this argument schizophrenic...
If these systems are permissionless...What stops governments from just using Coinjoins/lightning for privacy like you do? Or even swap to Monero or whatever privacy coin for when they want a transaction to be private? They can just hide behind a veil of "national security", "top secret", or "classified" like they already do.
"Can Monero be global money? I believe probably not due to regulation and other reasons."
If you're relying on politics and regulations for Bitcoin to succeed...you still don't understand Bitcoin. It's entire architecture is designed to operate without permission from any authority.
Did you even read it?
"If you're swapping Bitcoin for Monero frequently, it could leak some information"
Well, duh, Bitcoin is the weak link there for privacy. You get information leaks because of Bitcoins transparency, not because of Monero.
"However, it's unlikely that Monero itself has been compromised"
Dude you didn't even read your own article. You're linking stuff that helps my case not yours 😂
If Finland claims to have broken Bitcoins public private key pairs should we just immediately believe them with no evidence? Or could they be misleading/exaggerating/misspeaking or just flat-out lying as shown above in your own article? Since when do Bitcoiners just take the state at it's word anyway?
Again, you don't understand how Pedersen Commitments work. This is already established cryptography. That link I sent you explains very succinctly why this particular commitment scheme is quantum proof for it's hiding property, even against INFINITE computing power, but I'm assuming you didn't read that either.
...To be fair I couldn't believe it either for a long time until confirming it with more research and asking other cryptographers
"the government already broke it..."
Big claim but nothing to back it. Show us what makes you think that. And, like I said before, if it is true that they have a quantum computer that can break Moneros encryption, then it also means they can break your Bitcoin private keys and steal your Bitcoin.
"it’s obviously not quantum proof and we don’t even know what quantum proof completely looks like..."
You should learn how Pedersen Commitments work and realize that I'm specifically talking about the hiding property being quantum proof for amount value and receiver address(with the caveat from my previous comment). FCMP upgrade will include sender into this:
""Perfectly" binding or hiding means that even with infinite computing power it would be impossible to break the property"
Lmao your explanation is also an argument for Moneros encryption too
Matter of fact Moneros amount privacy is quantum computer proof because pedersen commitments are "perfectly hiding". Same thing for receiver privacy if an adversary can only observe the chain and doesn't have access to the original address.