Why Are Bitcoiners Idiots? \ stacker news ~AskSN

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11.1k sats \ 71 comments \ @denlillaapan 11h AskSN

I sometimes wonder if Bitcoiners (same, actually, for libertarians) are more or less stupid than the average person. Often, I conclude more.

It's the misalignment between knowledge of ignorance and pretense of knowledge.

A stupid person who knows that they're stupid don't make outrageous, ridiculous errors. (They also don't advance anything worth listening too, so there's that...) Per Dunning-Kruger type reasons, a stupid person with some newfound knowledge is still stupid but doesn't know it -- so runs around pretending they're not stupid. People who found libertarianism or bitcoin like five minutes ago quickly fall into this camp.

Latest observation, Seb Bunney -- whose book I really didn't like (#839329), in part for reasons I'm positing here -- on Preston Pysh's show, talking about psychology and the book The Body Keeps the Score:

It's an interesting field, and I very much enjoyed that book (for instance, the author approves of yoga as a gentle way of dealing with trauma, being comfortable with getting into your body again, #933248).

...and Bunney goes:

...a book that really stands out, and it's called The Body Keeps the Score by a lady called Bessel van der Kolk...

...except that van der Kolk is a man. And no, this isn't a trans argument; he's just straight-up a guy... (fair enough, the topic and the style in which the book is written is very female, but whatever.)

I see this a lot, and I cringe as much when Bitcoiners/self-proclaimed Austrian economists mispronounce "Mises" or "Keynes" or the "Cantillon" effect.

I'm not trying to be snobbish or superior (well, ok, maybe that one), looking for that one irrelevant/superficial gotcha or whatever... no, it's because these errors are so unbelievably rudimentary that only someone completely unversed in the topic would make them.

You are straight up telling me that you don't have a clue

You showed up two seconds ago, which is why you haven't heard these names be pronounced or bothered even googling the author you're reading to find out even the most basic info about them (background, university affiliation, freakin sex -- which, by the way, you definitely would have learned had you actually read the book...). You don't have a clue.

So, Stackers, is this just Dunning-Kruger in action, or are Bitcoiners (slightly) more retarded than the average person?

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1240 sats \ 14 replies \ @Scoresby 11h

I got a job at an oil refinery once. They were building some new vessel or pipe-related thing (it's shocking how many pipe-related things are at oil refineries) and my job was to watch a hole. This was a safety measure; when workers were inside the vessel or pipe, someone was required to be on the outside to get help in case something happened to them--think attack of the noxious fumes. Also, I was a go-fer.

One day I was asked to go get a channel lock wrench from the tool trailer. I did not know what a channel-lock wrench was. I still remember the expression on the journeyman's face when I asked him if he could tell me what it looked like. Keep in mind, while he was in the vessel, he was relying on me to watch out for his safety. He concluded that his safety was not in good hands. Obviously, any non-retard knows what a channel lock wrench is.

Heuristics are great at hints about whether a person is knowledgeable or not, but perhaps should be given slightly less weight in our evaluations than a person's arguments or actions. Mr Bunney may be capable of producing useful podcast insights even while being ignorant -- but how will we know?

I'm thinking about this particularly with regard to ai slop. After all, it is a similar kind of heuristic people use to evaluate whether a post is slop of not (the presence of the em dash, too many emojis, the this, not that pattern, etc). There may be good and interesting things in the slop, but unfortunately, it's an asymmetric battle: slop can be generated at significantly less cost than is required to evaluate it. But heuristics seem like such a blunt tool for the job.

The answer to your question is no. We are all retarded, just some people are better at avoiding circumstances where it shows.

38 sats \ 1 reply \ @030e0dca83 7h

... and my job was to watch a hole

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby 7h

My actual title was "hole watch"

107 sats \ 9 replies \ @ek 10h

One day I was asked to go get a channel lock wrench from the tool trailer. I did not know what a channel-lock wrench was. I still remember the expression on the journeyman's face when I asked him if he could tell me what it looked like. Keep in mind, while he was in the vessel, he was relying on me to watch out for his safety. He concluded that his safety was not in good hands. Obviously, any non-retard knows what a channel lock wrench is.

In case anybody else now wanted to know what a channel-lock wrench is:

Heuristics are great at hints about whether a person is knowledgeable or not, but perhaps should be given slightly less weight in our evaluations than a person's arguments or actions. Mr Bunney may be capable of producing useful podcast insights even while being ignorant -- but how will we know?

Good point, we might be smart in some specific way, but how smart are we really in determining someone else's smartness? Being smart is a very specific thing. Dumb is a more a general thing.

111 sats \ 3 replies \ @Scoresby 10h

Your picture is a crescent wrench. maybe call it adjustable crescent wrench. (I had a lot of time while watching holes to also watch wrenches).

this is a channel lock wrench:

17 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 10h

Interesting, I simply searched for "channel-lock wrench" and only pictures of the wrench above came up

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby 10h

yes, i too searched for wrenches (in my capacity as a hole watcher) and came up with many wrong wrenches. Wrench enthusiasts will probably correct us both here.

Channel locks are cool because they are faster to adjust than a crescent wrench. Also you can kind of open them up a bit and slide around the nut whereas with a crescent you have to pull the wrench off the nut and getting it back on can be difficult--however, you don't have to squeeze a crescent wrench...so you can probably exert more torque.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby 10h

Now that I think about it, they are probably called "channel lock pliers."

My retardation raises its ugly head, yet again.

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17 sats \ 2 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 10h

Here in Portugal, we call that tool a 'english wrench' (monkey wrench?). Don’t ask me why!

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby 10h

ek's wrench or my pliers?

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 10h

17 sats \ 1 reply \ @teemupleb 10h

It’s the famous $5 wrench!

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby 10h

well, you can't buy much of a wrench any more, but if I was to use a wrench to bash someone, I would use a pipe wrench.

102 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan OP 11h

my job was to watch a hole.

that sounds, um... inappropriate!

Mr Bunney may be capable of producing useful podcast insights even while being ignorant -- but how will we know?

oh, definitely. I've enjoyed some of his podcast appearances (WBD way back was stunning), and I sort of believe most of his overarching take... (monetary arrangements impact mentality), it's just that his evidence supporting it is crap, and his description of i.e., the monetary system is outlandishly stupid.

Lovely story, too (and I know what a channel lock wrench is, just not that it was called that!)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @LibertasBR 4h

We are all retarded, just some people are better at avoiding circumstances where it shows.

This is also a valid point, sometimes people just don't know or don't want to deal with an issue and base themselves on what common sense says about it.

1348 sats \ 9 replies \ @ek 10h

This is one of my favorite topics!

I would say that no, Bitcoiners are not significantly more or less able to think critically than the average person. They are just as wrong if you talk to them about enough topics. Sure, there might be a few exceptions, maybe even prominent ones, but on average, "being a Bitcoiner" does not tell me anything about your critical thinking skills. Money is just one topic, and pretending that knowing more about one topic makes you smarter in general—that sounds stupid in a profound way to me.

But it also depends on what your definition of a BItcoiner is.

Anyway, I also wrote about this here:

I also remember that I had a great conversation with someone in PlebLab while eating my sandwich. We were talking about how different bitcoiners really are from “normies.”

I took the side that we’re not that different. We’re mostly the same as other people and we have the same flaws. I do believe we’re right about how broken our money is, but I don’t believe being right about one thing of so many things in life—even if most problems are really downstream of money—means that we’re an extraordinary bunch of people. We still prefer to hear what we want to hear, we have influencers that most blindly follow, and most bitcoiners can’t even read code. Under these circumstances, how can we even pretend that “don’t trust, verify” is anything more than just a meme? Bitcoin is not built on trust, but trust is the scaling solution for bitcoin’s social layer. To not acknowledge that only proves my point even more that we’re not that different.

and here:

Most "bitcoiners" got "lucky" that they had one good insight into the world (broken money) but now think they are sooo smart and normies are sooo stupid.

No, you’re mostly just as retarded as everyone else. Maybe even more because now you think you’re right about way more things where normies would actually be humble enough to admit they don’t know and don‘t care. But as long as it makes you feel more like a "bitcoiner" and your bitcoin echo chamber tells you you are right, you are convinced you are right.

I really agree with what @elvismercury once said:

When I sit next to someone and they say they are a bitcoiner, I think: "Oh shit."

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury 6h

I have found a lot of alpha in being good at recognizing quality people.

It seems simple, but this thread gives many examples of why it's not. Assuming that the hated tribe is composed entirely of idiots is the most trivial illustration, but there are others, most of them rooted in the almost overwhelming need to feel good about yourself, about the rightness of your own beliefs and to justify the things that you're doing and want to do.

Hard swim upstream of that, but worth it. You make better and more useful friends, if nothing else.

78 sats \ 6 replies \ @denlillaapan OP 10h

Maybe even more because now you think you’re right about way more things where normies would actually be humble enough to admit they don’t know and don‘t care.

Maybe. Ought to be, anyway. Not sure that's always what I find.

Next topic: if so -- Bitcoiners just as awful on other topics, falling prey to same human flaws etc etc (+ @Scoresby's agreement below), why is it that Bitcoiners naturally get along so well? Even if they're wacky af and into flat earth or chemtrails, I connect with them in a deeper, non-Bitcoiner level than I do any of my normie friends, say here in my village.

First level explanation: at least Bitcoiners' minds are oriented in the right way, whereas most normies' aren't, spending their cognitive efforts on NYT headlines or deep down woketard land

115 sats \ 5 replies \ @ek 10h

why is it that Bitcoiners naturally get along so well?

Because we're retarded in the same ways that are important to us?

My assumption is other retarded people also connect in a deeper, non-Bitcoiner level with each other. It has nothing to do with Bitcoin.

First level explanation: at least Bitcoiners' minds are oriented in the right way, whereas most normies' aren't, spending their cognitive efforts on NYT headlines or deep down woketard land

That's one of the flaws I mean. There is not just one class of "normies." There are many. Calling someone a "normie" is just another thing Bitcoiners do to simplify the world enough that it fits in their head.

There are a tons of different people out there who would or wouldn't get along with each other, even if we would call them all "normies."

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury 6h

Yes. It takes a deeper interaction before the tyranny of small differences sets in. Bitcoiners mos def do not get along if you wait long enough, as the recent OP_RETURN thing amply demonstrates. Many such examples.

That's one of the flaws I mean. There is not just one class of "normies." There are many. Calling someone a "normie" is just another thing Bitcoiners do to simplify the world enough that it fits in their head.

You have my axe!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 5h

It takes a deeper interaction before the tyranny of small differences sets in. Bitcoiners mos def do not get along if you wait long enough, as the recent OP_RETURN thing amply demonstrates.

Good point!

For some reason, I am very good at not identifying with anything¹, so I guess I'm in a perpetual state of the tyranny of small differences?

I like to think this comes from an adversarial mindset

doesn't always feel good though ↩

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @denlillaapan OP 9h

other retarded people also connect in a deeper, non-Bitcoiner level with each other. It has nothing to do with Bitcoin.

woketards find themselves, too, and instantly get along even though they otherwise don't share anything in life...?

14 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby 9h

Tribalism, yeah? We're on the same team. We have the same enemies. Makes it easier to ignore each others' retardation.

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 6h

Yes, the tribalism of Libertarians is as amusing as it is ironic.

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22 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby 10h

"being a Bitcoiner" does not tell me anything about your critical thinking skills.

100%

229 sats \ 1 reply \ @jimmysong 8h

These are unbelievably nitpicky examples. Lots of people are not native English speakers and don't listen to podcasts all day to know little details like that. To use this as evidence that a whole group of people is retarded is itself retarded.

If anything that shows me that these people get information primarily from reading which is a lot more thoughtful and indicates a deeper engagement with the material than someone who pronounces words correctly but parrots establishment opinion on everything.

What's retarded is going along with COVID lockdowns, or supporting a stupid war or going along with trans men playing women's sports. It's the people unwilling to question main narratives that have the deeper intellectual flaw.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan OP 7h

I mean, por que los dos??

someone who pronounces words correctly but parrots establishment opinion on everything

It's not like "mispronounce+error but good thought" vs "stupid ideas but correct pronunciation" are the only combinations around

plus: At what point above did I argue in favor of those retarded things?

300 sats \ 8 replies \ @Undisciplined 11h

Before I realized it was already a well known thing, something like Dunning-Kruger occurred to me.

I thought of it as being iterative, though. As we learn new things, we overestimate ourselves for a bit until we realize that we’re still dumb. Then we learn something else and repeat the cycle.

66 sats \ 5 replies \ @optimism 11h

I thought of it as being iterative, though

The temporal factor is a thing, I like this.

we overestimate ourselves for a bit until we realize that we’re still dumb. Then we learn something else and repeat the cycle.

And we never get to the point of not being dumb?

145 sats \ 4 replies \ @Undisciplined 11h

No, we’re always dumb. We just aren’t always aware of it.

142 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 10h

I would say we will always be dumb in way more ways than we're smart

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @optimism 10h

I'd add: on any topic and that even if we're the ultimate source of knowledge today, if not tomorrow we're outdated, it will be the day after tomorrow, because the collective evolves faster than we can grasp it.

28 sats \ 0 replies \ @optimism 11h

Yes, that's what I think too.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 11h

I know that I know nothing

42 sats \ 1 reply \ @freetx 11h

There is a corollary to DK Effect that sorta works in reverse:

Newb thinks the topic is simple
Mid-level knowledge thinks same topic is super complicated with tons of variables
Expert level thinks the topic is simple

That is, when we are at "mid-level" knowledge we are aware of all these conditional variables but we haven't totally integrated them yet....eventually we integrate these into our mental model and sort of flatten it down to a simplistic model again.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 10h

That’s almost exactly the framework I had in mind, but as we collapse one topic back to “simple” we become aware of new tangential topics and go through the cycle again.

133 sats \ 1 reply \ @SimpleStacker 9h

Yeh, I definitely can sense this. But it's not just bitcoin, it's in a lot of spaces. Think of the impressionable woke college student who thinks they are so virtuous because they learned some new obscure way in which inequality manifests itself in everyday life.

So I think the issue you're pointing to (as others have mentioned) is not specific to bitcoin, but to the human condition.

That being said, I do get chuckles at how so many people think Michael Saylor is so deep but most of what he says is just pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan OP 8h

That being said, I do get chuckles at how so many people think Michael Saylor is so deep but most of what he says is just pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo.

true but it's ELOQUENT AF. And sometimes, like God's ledger, it's pretty darn good too

193 sats \ 5 replies \ @optimism 11h

is this just Dunning-Kruger in action, or are Bitcoiners (slightly) more retarded than the average person?

I think it's a bit more of the former, a bit less of the latter. Everyone is overconfident nowadays, myself included. It's something I try to manage.

It takes a bit of a retard to not understand everything about the world you hate yet pivot to Bitcoin, especially going all-in maxi and talking about nothing else all day. It's often belief or dissatisfaction with the system that drives people into this realm, not a 20 years study of Austrian Economics to then come to the logical conclusion that Bitcoin is superior to fiat. And this isn't bad, because we'd have no young people in the Bitcoin space if it were like that - and we need the young people: can't have boomers and Gen X do everything because we're slow af and many of us have too much to lose.

I think that your objections to Seb's book were clear (and imho valid.) Did you ever get to discuss it with him?

100 sats \ 4 replies \ @denlillaapan OP 11h

right -- why the yuppie elites don't get bitcoin!

re: Seb, no. He tweet-acknowledged my Mises review, never got back to me. Haven't interacted with him since

12 sats \ 3 replies \ @optimism 10h

In my imagination it would be great to have a purple monkey podcast where you interview the authors of books and articles.

100 sats \ 2 replies \ @denlillaapan OP 10h

Not a bad idea!

I guess if I were somewhat more charming and eloquent live/in speech that would make sense

The purple monkey show! Bitcoin Books for Apes

33 sats \ 1 reply \ @optimism 10h

I guess if I were somewhat more charming and eloquent

Eloquence and charm are overrated. It's passion and savagery we want.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan OP 10h

those qualities I have in spades, eh

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210 sats \ 0 replies \ @030e0dca83 10h

32 sats \ 0 replies \ @nullcount 8h

I like to acknowledge that there is a difference between "knowledge" and "wisdom".

You can be wise while getting the "facts" wrong, and you can be knowledgeable about something without an ounce of "common sense".

There are also reasonable and unreasonable ways to arrive at knowledge/wisdom/truth. Some prefer the path of science/logic, others find the path of spirit/emotion more enjoyable.

If you define "intelligence" as "the same path I took to find truth" then, yea, most people are going to look like idiots from your perspective.

33 sats \ 1 reply \ @88b0c423eb 1h

Maybe bitcoiners tend to be like libertarians a bit bigot in the sense of discarding some topics, but most get more things right than the average joe, just think about the psicopandemic and that almost all bitcoiners and libertarians understand it was a psyop and did not get the poison vaccine...that apply to many other subjects that the average joe fall to it.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan OP 35m

True true true. Maybe we just got lucky that one time...?

33 sats \ 2 replies \ @LibertasBR 4h

I've seen this more than once in different groups from different segments. I've really seen a lot of people here who lose that "humility" of someone who's new and completely oblivious to the whole subject. I don't know why, maybe the person leans on a guru or gurus and sees the same speech being repeated all the time and just repeats it like a parrot, or maybe because their goal is just to get good results in fiat by "investing" in bitcoin and they get super excited seeing that the best thing to do is to defend the "asset", since in a bubble everyone does it. In any case, the lack of depth is always present and you're right.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @denlillaapan OP 4h

collective hallucinations, tied together by shared/captured financial interests?

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @LibertasBR 4h

collective hallucinations, tied together by shared/captured financial interests?

Not specifically in this case, but in some that I've seen and see in groups, yes. Many times the person is using shitcoin services or fiat and shouting that bitcoin is the solution, complete schizophrenia.

Reading @Scoresby's comment I also agree that it may just be everyone's pattern.

154 sats \ 3 replies \ @softglitter2d 11h

There's a song of Calle 13 that states:

Idiocy is a disease in which the patient does not know that he is sick.

An average bitcoiner is an idiot and I know (I speak for myself) my condition because the root of the word idiot means lack of knowledge¹, the more I learn, the more idiot I feel. And I think that's beautiful, especially in bitcoin.

Now, there are bitcoiners so retarded because they feel superior just for the fact they're using/spending/saving satoshis; the worst retarded bitcoiner came out of their caves in the Knots-Core debate, harrasing developers, making ad hominem fallacies and pretending to know a subject they lack of knowledge at all and they don't realize they are, as me, idiots.

So, about your being superior in certain subjects dear OP, you are. As a matter of fact, I learn a lot with you and in the past, you inspired me to write posts about topics but keep asking question (#803129). However, I have no doubts that in others skills/topic, you're an idiot.

Short conclusion: Yes, we bitcoiners, are idiots by nature but no retarded...well, maybe a little.

The English idiot originally meant “ignorant person,” but the more usual reference now is to a person who lacks basic intelligence or common sense rather than education. See Merriam-Webster ↩

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @denlillaapan OP 11h

I LOVE CALLE 13, MY GOD. Gotta listen to this song

...I have no doubts that in others skills/topic, you're an idiot.

100%. I just hope that when the time comes I back up my idiocy with reasonable hedges and skepticism and good reasoning. Strong beliefs, weakly held etc

the original greek interpretation of the word, I believe, is "private" or "a private person" -- which is weird af

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @denlillaapan OP 10h

Algunos nacen idiotas, otros aprenden a serlo!

jury is still out which camp I'm in

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @softglitter2d 10h

Uno es más inteligente cuando piensa como idiota

writerwritingandburningpaper.gif

22 sats \ 2 replies \ @k00b 6h

Greeting rich fast is a helluva drug

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b 5h

*getting

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Car 2h

🤣 thats the only reason he is on the podcast

33 sats \ 0 replies \ @Hodl117 9h

The one that gets me is "unconfiscatable" vs. "non-confiscable". I still had to google it to make sure I used the proper prefix, and I'm still not sure about it lol