1235 sats \ 14 replies \ @demitasse 9 Dec 2022
I wouldn't say lightning has failed but the incentives definitely are very different from onchain bitcoin and tend towards centralization and custodial models.
The only people incentivized to run a node are businesses which leads to a hub and spoke model of major nodes ran by businesses like bitfinex, bitrefill, wallet of satoshi, muun, etc.
Person run small nodes don't have the liquidity and the people running them don't have the expertise to properly manage channels, rebalance, etc. Which is a huge hassle for someone who just wants to buy a coffee.
Bitcoiners need to be honest about this, instead of sticking their heads in the sand and shouting down anyone who points this out. For a normal user who won't even go through the trouble of doing a coinjoin to acheive a basic level of privacy, thinking they will run their own lightning node is complete fantasy land.
They will always use custodial lightning wallets like wallet of satoshi or bitcoin beach, and custodial means aml/kyc, which means government surveillance and blacklisted wallets/addresses. So far there is no solution which prioritizes self sovereignty or similar decentralized and permissionless incentives like the base chain.
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2097 sats \ 1 reply \ @0260378aef 9 Dec 2022
This perspective (specifically the first paragraph) was extremely common as an argument against LN around the time it was first being introduced (2017-18). Here's what I think is a fundamental error embedded in this way of thinking:
A common complaint, from outsiders, about Bitcoin itself is 'well I can't verify the code! So it's effectively controlled by a tiny group of Core devs'. The nuance is this: even if only a few thousand people can fully vet and audit the code, the numbers are high enough and distributed enough that someone is definitely going to catch malicious changes. This is the dynamic of open source: anyone can contribute and review and test, even if of course most people don't.
It's linked to bitcoin's own architecture: nodes can leave and join at will. The dynamic created by this openness is what counts, not the specific set of contributors/nodes/coders that exist today.
By the same token, in Lightning, of course hubs will spring up, there will be pockets of centralization here and there - but new nodes can spring up any time to route around those hubs. And this argument is critically dependent on how easy it is to spin up Lightning nodes for at least a subset of users - and indeed, it really is easy, and it only gets easier every year. Even people on phones have very easy to use non-custodial options (example: Phoenix) so the situation is even better than the 'start-a-node-optionality' that I describe.
So in that sense LN is even better than 'fully distributed/decentralized' - it's instead completely open - you cannot stop any set of people choosing a pure hub and spoke model for their dealings, and you cannot stop the exact opposite, either.
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @brugeman 10 Dec 2022
I agree. Node centralization is not a problem, because small nodes won't ever die, and their existence will always counter-act the censorship of hubs. For end users, auto-pilot will work just fine for managing channels. 'Running a node' should stand for 'running a profitable routing node' - that's not trivial (but easy enough for an average developer, whom there are millions), and end users - shouldn't route. They should use non-custodial wallet with a proper auto-pilot.
We are at the very beginning of LN, and so much progress is ahead, it makes not much sense to assume that current limitations are forever.
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1132 sats \ 5 replies \ @chairman_pretense 9 Dec 2022
This is why I asked this question about mobile wallets the other day: #103728
Normal users can and do run their own Lightning nodes on mobile, today.
They can set them up, open channels and buy a coffee quicker than opening any fiat bank account.
Many of them probably don’t even realise they’re running a node.
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999 sats \ 4 replies \ @vlx 9 Dec 2022
While being non-custodial, these mobile phone lightning nodes do not provide the infastructure for routing and will probably always rely on centralized lightning service providers. And these could be easy to regulate.
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1353 sats \ 2 replies \ @hampus 9 Dec 2022
Being a routing node or not does not matter whatsoever and it makes no sense for a mobile node to also route payments.
With some wallets like Blixt, Breez and OBW, you do not rely on centralized lightning service providers. You can open a channel to whatever node you want to.
In practice you would want to find a good and well connected node, which there are plenty of. But you don't have to. You can connect to some obscure one to stay low profile.
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30 sats \ 1 reply \ @vlx 9 Dec 2022
You cannot open a channel to whatever node you want to and expect your wallet to work reliably when your node is offline most of the time or for a longer period of time.
But the longer I think about it, the more it seems like a matter of charging some extra fees for mobile peers and not so much about regulation for lightning service providers.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @hampus 9 Dec 2022
So then you will have to choose whether you want reliability or not.
My point was that you have the option. You cannot have it all.
I think regulation for wallet developers and LSPs is a real concern. But it cannot destroy Lightning, because you can always to connect permissionlessly to other peers.
It might make Lightning suck though.
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2 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 9 Dec 2022
That's bullshit. Regulate for what? Nobody can "regulate" what am I doing with my own bits and tits through my node. I can run multiple nodes anytime I want and I don't give a shit about any regulation or government.
Why people cry for bullshit regulation?
Why people like to obey like sheeps?
Who the fuck is this "government" that want to regulate my life?
I am sick and tired of all this cronic statism.
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11 sats \ 3 replies \ @hades OP 9 Dec 2022
Yes, it certainly works today. I’m a daily user and enjoy the experience. My concern is that we stop here when I think if we look forward 100 years it becomes unworkable. If I’m making 1mil sats/year (and it declines yearly due to deflation) opening a channel with the 300,000 sats I’ve saved at an on chain cost of my life savings would be untenable. I don’t think we can sit on LN and call it a day. Maybe L3/L4 technology gets there but I appreciate the public discourse without the public hanging of someone saying “This has issues long term.” SN seems to be a better place for that then Twitter. Your self-sovereignty concern I also share. How does a company pay employees and do accounting and tax work without demanding zpubs? It’s difficult to find a job now if you are unbanked and can’t do direct deposit. Do we have to make bips that make privacy features a requirement or do we do a public push to prevent government from creeping into my transactions? I think one is easier than the other.
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2 sats \ 1 reply \ @02f125d44e 9 Dec 2022
if bitcoin goes to 100% adoption then idont think 1M sats will be anyone's salary.
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2 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 9 Dec 2022
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 9 Dec 2022
But why have to pay taxes anyways?
Taxation is theft in any form or shape.
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @iguano 10 Dec 2022
every phoenix, breez, blixt, electrum, etc wallet, is running a lightning node. check facts before commenting please.
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23 sats \ 0 replies \ @pillar 9 Dec 2022
I agree with your points, but I just want to add a couple of subtleties:
- Even though I agree that there is a trend to big, enterprise-grade nodes, the cool thing is ANYONE can "easily" (not common-mortal easily, but at least power-user with a $500 dollars budget easy) spin-up a node that can integrate itself on the network on an equal level to those nodes. This means that, if the few big nodes do anything stupid, there is an open door to a balancing counter-reaction of plebs sticking the finger and taking action.
- Fedimint could bring a landscape of uncle-jim-on-steroids, where hundreds or thousands of fedimint federations exist and regular users happily use them, promoting an environment of healthy, competitive and private custodian-ship.
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34 sats \ 5 replies \ @k00b 9 Dec 2022
If it fails, I don't think payment channels are dead - merely just this construction of them. If any construction of payment channels is unworkable, which is unlikely IMO, then we'll certainly need an alternative path to scale.
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527 sats \ 4 replies \ @hades OP 9 Dec 2022
I like this train of thought. Good point. My concern was the distant future when a 1 btc channel held the equivalent of a small country GDP. How would an average citizen open a 1000 sat channel in a mempool filled with the transactions of nations.
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359 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 10 Dec 2022
I saw somewhere a discussion between LN devs that could be possible to "trade" already opened channels. Something about channel factories.
Means you can "buy" from someone else or marketplace a channel that was opened long time ago.
Practically exchanging owners of that channel.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @hades OP 11 Dec 2022
Brilliant! I think there is a wallet that does something like that. Trades private keys instead of going on chain. I haven’t spent enough time looking into it. https://mercurywallet.com/
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102 sats \ 1 reply \ @brugeman 10 Dec 2022
I don't think anyone thinks that the current channel creation methods will be economic. That's why there is work on channel factories https://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/channel-factories/.
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @hades OP 11 Dec 2022
Amazing, thank you for the share! That’s a game changer.
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33 sats \ 0 replies \ @andyleroy 10 Dec 2022
Any centralization or decentralization of the LN is not relevant as some sort of showstopper IMO.
As others have alluded to before in previous threads and essays, there may end up being two sorts of networks - one focused on privacy, more decentralized, and with more nodes - and another with more centralizing factors, higher capacity, and adhering more to things like AML, KYC. I don't see any issue with this, and as everything can be custodial, anyone can enter or leave the network as they see fit.
The technical scaling Lightning provides is required for any sort of hyper bitcoinization from a medium of exchange perspective. Either the largest exchanges become the Visa's of the world and keep a ledger among their businesses and settle on some sort of regular interval (giving them a position to rehypothecate and in a sense "pay" for the services to maintain infrastructure), or the LN grows to support and chunk away at the functionality Visa provides - albeit from the ground up in many emerging markets where having a new financial system may be more of a net new opportunity and provide utility.
But for Bitcoin to become a currency beyond a digital store of value, there will need to be some sort of off chain immediate exchange property, and the success of LN helps ensure we don't face rehypothecation issues.
The biggest challenge I see in the near term are demand factors - getting more goods and services denominated in bitcoin (and LN), which in turn gives more incentive to routers, which encourages network growth, and makes running a node more profitable - especially considering the time, expertise, risk, and captial node operators are putting forth in these early days.
This is why things like Taro are so crucial and helpful for network growth and adoption as well. It's a necessary demand flywheel to keep the network effects headed in the right direction for everyone.
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3 sats \ 2 replies \ @DarthCoin 9 Dec 2022
We just die. The end.
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1 sat \ 1 reply \ @hades OP 9 Dec 2022
It’s not so bad. You’ll love the Underworld! The ones that question, that challenge things…they usually arrive on their feet. The rest…on their knees.
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13 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 9 Dec 2022
I am building my citadel, with my own hands, deep into the mountains. Slowly and steady. To be prepared for anything that could come.
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2 sats \ 0 replies \ @selfish_gene 9 Dec 2022
достаточно сделать вирусное приложение для молнии. открытое, простое, доступное. пополняет адрес и готого. упростит до максимума. а то этот узел как запускать так, нужно 55 высшее образование.
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2 sats \ 0 replies \ @SodaPop 9 Dec 2022
All depends on the way it fails. Bitcoin is in a git repository. If Lightning fails, we can vote to go back to an older version without lightning, and try again.
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