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258 sats \ 17 replies \ @Undisciplined 20 Jul \ on: My friend is eating an almost vegetarian diet. I think it's killing him. HealthAndFitness
I think you're mostly seeing what you want to see. Lots of people age very well on a diet like that of your friend.
My mom eats a similar diet to that, whereas my dad eats far more meat. She's aging much better than him and they're both much older than your friend.
Where you and I probably agree is that your friend should scrutinize his diet a bit and try to find areas of improvement. There probably are things he's eating that aren't helping and things he's not eating that could help.
Nah, fake news.
It's meat or nothing, bro.
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What's the claim you're advancing? That only carnivores manage to be healthy in their old age?
If this guy's less healthy than normal while eating a normal diet, then most likely something else is up.
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I don't think this is even a "normal" diet. He eats way more veggies than most people, and way less meat, and zero red meat.
I'd call it a "healthy as defined by mainstream nutritional advice" diet.
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Fair enough. It's still more meat than literally billions of Asians eat, many of whom age much better than westerners tend to.
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They look old at 40... I'm not convinced
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I've always attributed that (with no evidence) to skin damage from pervasive air pollution.
Still, they look a lot younger still being alive after 80 than the rotting corpses you'd have to compare them with in the West.
I'd call it a "healthy as defined by mainstream nutritional advice" diet. cancel
So... Unhealthy?*
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So... Unhealthy?
That's certainly how I see it now!
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Anecdotes don't count for much, of course. But do we believe the alternative hypothesis, that healthy/healthspan is either unresponsive to diet, or that carnivore/vegetarian is equivalent for muscle mass/bone density/cognitive persevation etc etc?
Nah, go away with that.
Fine, @Signal312 can't with accuracy know that his specific friend is ill/looking "terrible" is because of his lack of high-quality animal fats... just like you can't draw that the opposite conclusion from your parents.
Still, am I convinced enough that high-quality animal foods are conducive for longevity and health? Yes.
Sure, other variables have positive effects (exercise, smoking, DNA, sunlight, sleep, blah-blah) but that doesn't mean we can't point to the most obviously suspicious one
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I'm not sure about "anecdotes don't count for much".
In the face of:
- persistent, widespread denial of the damage that sugar and carbohydrates can do 1.
- persistent propaganda by mainstream media AGAINST eating meat, in particular beef... 2
...I almost trust anecdotes more than establishment science.
I have definitely run into people who (when I'm spouting off about my carnivore diet) tell me that they've been vegan and very healthy for 15 years. I'm not quite sure what to do with that information. Maybe they're not telling the truth, maybe they're vegetarian (plus dairy, eggs, fish) and calling that vegan, maybe they're doing an outstanding job at supplementing a deficient diet. Or maybe there are truly some people who do okay on a vegan diet.
All I know for absolute sure is how I've done with carnivore (SO much better, never going back), and a loved one on keto (tons better as well).
Footnotes
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maybe there are truly some people who do okay on a vegan diet
This is where I'm at.
There are two diets that make no nutritional sense to me (carnivore and fruitarian) but I've met very healthy seeming people who did them for a long time. Maybe everything fell apart for them eventually, but I can't just assume that.
I've also known people whose health has gotten worse on various diets. I'm left with the conclusion that there's just a ton that we still don't know about nutrition.
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So you've actually seen long-term fruitarians? What is long term?
On the carnivore podcasts, one thing you hear very frequently is long term vegans, who have turned carnivore.
Here's what it usually looks like: their health issues just come to a breaking point, a friend who's a vegan-turned-carnivore encourages them to try it, they do, often have a VERY difficult time, emotionally, starting to eat meat again, but once they do, all their problems gradually disappear.
I've heard a variation of this story many, many times.
I'm curious if there's any version that go the other way....carnivore turned vegan.
This is why I say "seeing what you want to see". We didn't hear anything about those other factors and yet you're comfortable with this conclusion. I didn't hear anything that makes it sound "most likely". I heard about someone with a healthier than average diet (less processed foods, less added sugar, etc.) who's suffering more than average infirmities. Nothing about that points to diet as the most likely culprit.
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Meh. If peeps, from your grandma to the opinion pages of the major newspapers, can do unscientific attribution studies on the fly every time there's a noticeable weather phenomena or, say, unvaxx deaths, I can do the same for vegetable eaters.
On the upside, it has the added benefit of annoying them greatly and dispelling their beliefs in self-virtue
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Ok, but that makes it just as poor of analysis as they're engaged in, doesn't it?