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Bitcoin Brick & Mortar
8973 sats \ 59 comments \ @siggy47 25 Jul bitcoin
I'm now fully retired. I'm bored to death. Maybe my recent meals at Steak 'n Shake revived my interest, but I have been thinking about owning a local business that accepts bitcoin for a long time. My inspiration has come mainly from visits to PubKey and the Melville Deli, but also from podcasts featuring Thomas Pacchia and Peter McCormack.
Both of them are inspirational. Pacchia's resume is ridiculously impressive. He was a derivatives lawyer at one of the most prestigious law firms in the world. Then he directed Fidelity's blockchain incubator and digital assets services, before starting his own hedge fund.
He then opened a bitcoin bar. Yes, I'm sure he had a gigantic stack, and yes, he still invests in other bitcoin projects, but I respect that he took a chance on the pub. He believes that without paying attention to bitcoin culture, NGU might become the only thing that matters to most stackers. Freedom and sovereignty will take a back seat. He talks about the importance of bitcoin culture in this interview.
Peter McCormack built what was probably the most successful bitcoin podcast, then walked away to focus on building a bitcoin football team in his home town. I’m sure most of you are familiar with Real Bedford. Here’s a link to a good discussion between Pacchia and McCormack about bitcoin businesses:
Not all wealthy bitcoiners seem concerned with these issues. Michael Saylor doesn’t value sovereignty in practice. He supports it in theory because that’s what keeps the fiat value of bitcoin propped up. He doesn’t see bitcoin as a peer to peer cash system, no matter what the white paper says. We all know what he thinks about "paranoid crypto anarchists."
Willy Woo has sold most of his bitcoin since he thinks he can make more money (read fiat $$) investing in bitcoin companies. Adam Back is using his stash for a bitcoin treasury company. Self sovereignty seems to be taking a back seat to dollar gains.
When it comes to self custody and peer to peer transactions, the environment is becoming more “use it or lose it” every day. Innovation in wallets and payment systems will gradually cease.
That’s why I’m so impressed with Pacchia and McCormack, and I want to imitate them if I can.
I'm under no illusions. Both of these guys are brilliant, and my tiny stack can't compare to theirs. I still would like to give it a try on a more modest scale.
One recipe for success seems to be to buy an existing local business, and then add bitcoin to open the market to loyal bitcoiners. It would still be difficult and risky, I'm sure, but I can't imagine more satisfying work, at least for me.
Are any stackers in the process of setting up local bitcoin businesses, or at least thinking about it?
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160 sats \ 14 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 25 Jul
Woah! I can’t wait to retire so I can just do whatever I want, whenever I feel like it. But I get the mindset, I know a lot of people like that, folks who’ve been working since they were super young, and once they retire, they just can’t sit still. I can imagine running a business isn’t easy and comes with a lot of stress, don’t burn yourself out. I think it’s a really cool idea, but maybe you’ll need some help to manage it. Have you thought about what kind of business you’d want to start? Like, which area or field?
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74 sats \ 13 replies \ @siggy47 OP 25 Jul
You're right. If I pursue this half cocked I will just stress myself out. I want to partner with young, enthusiastic bitcoiners. Regarding type of business, I have toyed with the idea of an independent coffee shop with an existing local presence in a high density, walkable neighborhood. Pacchia located PubKey in a space that had been a local dive bar, under different management, for years. I would want a decent sized space to hold bitcoin meetups, and attract guest speakers for events. I would ideally also like a small book selling section (real books!) selling bitcoin, libertarian, and bitcoin adjacent titles. Maybe also sell a few solo miners and (factory sealed!) hardware wallets? I don't have any definite plans yet.
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36 sats \ 7 replies \ @unschooled 25 Jul
I would ideally also like a small book selling section (real books!) selling bitcoin, libertarian, and bitcoin adjacent titles. Maybe also sell a few solo miners and (factory sealed!) hardware wallets?
i suspect you might have some loyal customers right off the hop with this one, not to mention an engaged audience/subscriber base for your mailing list. i reckon there have been successful enterprises that have started with less than that!
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45 sats \ 6 replies \ @siggy47 OP 25 Jul
For the privacy conscious, buying a real book, in person, without revealing your identity is a big deal. It might be an even bigger deal in the future. Nowadays you don't own kindle books, and even hosting your own content has drawbacks and points of failure.
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36 sats \ 5 replies \ @unschooled 25 Jul
sounds like a niche to me! not to mention how much effort is being put into making screens more like paper...ill never stop collecting physical books, personally. i think the key here would be in curation.
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45 sats \ 4 replies \ @siggy47 OP 25 Jul
You nailed it. Curation is the key. If the coffee shop is in a young, progressive urban setting maybe I shouldn't start shoving Hayek down their throats day one! I wouldn't sell much coffee.
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72 sats \ 3 replies \ @DarthCoin 25 Jul
I have toyed with the idea of an independent coffee shop with an existing local presence in a high density
hahahaha this remember me this funny episode of "Curb your enthusiasm" about Mocha Joe coffee shop.
You remind me of Larry David somehow hahahaha
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42 sats \ 2 replies \ @siggy47 OP 25 Jul
I have a friend who actually acts like Larry David, and doesn't even realize it. There are Larry Davids all over New York.
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46 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 25 Jul
must be something they put in the water hahahahahaha LOL imagine Larry using (struggling) to use a LN wallet on his phone hahahaha
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @plebpoet 25 Jul
would love to see that lol
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51 sats \ 0 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 25 Jul
Sounds like a solid start to the plan. That little Bitcoin corner in the coffee shop is awesome!
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67 sats \ 7 replies \ @optimism 25 Jul
A few months ago this was discussed with @grayruby here: #971227
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130 sats \ 6 replies \ @siggy47 OP 25 Jul
Yes, I remember this post and discussion.
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400 sats \ 5 replies \ @grayruby 25 Jul
Unfortunately the financials they provided me were a bunch of crap. It took about 15 minutes walking around the store, reviewing the inventory, pricing, customer counts to realize they would have to turn over the entire store inventory every week to make the amount of revenue they were claiming to make.
The business is still for sale and I am somewhat still interested but until I can get a better look into the financials I am hesitant. I don’t want to buy a money pit. There is two years left on the lease and the landlord is will to extend it under current term for a new owner or renegotiate but it’s kind of a moot point if the business is losing money.
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80 sats \ 4 replies \ @siggy47 OP 25 Jul
From what I know about you you're more experienced in analyzing this stuff than me. I have been involved in a few business buys in the past, and I automatically build in a pretty high bullshit assumption when talking to prior owners. No matter what they say, I always assume it will be a major turnaround project.
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136 sats \ 1 reply \ @grayruby 25 Jul
Agreed. The hang up is I want sales data directly from the pos system to consider moving forward and they want me to take their bullshit spreadsheets at face value.
My argument is just give it to me now because you are going to have to give it to me eventually and the sale will just fall through and it will be a big waste of our time but I guess they are counting on sunk cost and whoever buys already being too far down the road to turn back.
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76 sats \ 0 replies \ @optimism 25 Jul
Love the no-nonsense approach.
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76 sats \ 1 reply \ @Wumbo 25 Jul
I can not find the post at the moment but there was talk of buying a minor league baseball team in the StackerSports territory.
I am just saying! Think about it.
Could be a good retirement job.
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36 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby 25 Jul
That’s a long term goal of mine.
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36 sats \ 1 reply \ @AG 12h
Bookmarking this for our next TM7 in the ~AGORA!
We are having this kind of business conversations on our weekly appointment
Check it out if you are looking for more inspiration or guidance
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 12h
I will.
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36 sats \ 6 replies \ @k00b 25 Jul
@jimmysong shared a nostr note a year or two ago about wanting to do the same. I can't find it now. https://nostr.band is down.
My wife fantasizes about running low-staff brick-and-mortar businesses in retirement: automated carwashes or laundromats or vending machines. Bitcoinizing those businesses, given that the staff doesn't need to be trained, should be fairly straightforward too.
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100 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 25 Jul
Its funny you mentioned a laundromat. I thought of that. My dad bought a laundromat in the early 1970s. It was mostly self service, but we did have an employee who did service laundry for people who worked. My job was to keep enough quarters painted with red enamel nail polish to identify the quarters used by our employee. It didn't go well. No one in our family has any mechanical repair abilities. The machines needed a lot of maintenance. He sold the place quickly. I understand the modern industrial machines are much more reliable.
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36 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b 25 Jul
link to song's post on nostr band
njump is down now. can't catch a break today.
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43 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 25 Jul
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36 sats \ 0 replies \ @LibertasBR 25 Jul
Vending machines is a pretty nice idea. I've already thought about it. I just need to come up with a partnership refill system. Anyone could refill the machine and earn Sats from it. The problem is ensuring that they're refilling with legitimate products and not just any junk. This way, I avoid angry customers or worse.
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36 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b 25 Jul
A simple bitcoin cafe would be really fun.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 25 Jul
Storage units might be a good one.
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83 sats \ 1 reply \ @jimmysong 22h
If you're serious about this, the two books that were recommended to me are "Buy then Build" and "HBS Guide to Buying a Small Business." I've read both and they're very good.
The main obstacle for me is that it takes about 12-18 months to find one that's actually profitable and reasonable to take over and in the right geography. Also, these days, you're competing with a lot of private equity firms who are bidding up anything that's actually profitable. Fiat money has found its way to even small businesses.
But yea, if you do pursue this, it's not a short process and you'll need a good accountant and lawyer at a minimum. All that said, I hope you find something profitable to do with your time.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 22h
Thanks very much for your insight and book recommendations. I will definitely read them. I am serious. I have some experience with small business valuations, and, as you point out, it will likely be a long, difficult search for the right situation. It's complicated by the fact that small business financials can be easily misrepresented.
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72 sats \ 5 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 25 Jul
I accept bitcoin in my online sales business- however very few people use the option.
Here in New Zealand there are very few btc accepting bars- none in my province though a few in Queenstown where lightningpay.nz are actively onboarding businesses to accept. Queenstown has a very high exposure to young international travellers who are more likely to have and want to spend.
IMO for a BTC bar you need either a large city where enough Bitcoiners will be or a city where enough travelers will be drawn to the BTC aspect.
I have tried to encourage the owner of a large bar here in my city to accept but no success, and he owes me too for help I gave in starting his property renovation side business, but regardless still does not want to take the risk of accepting- for most businesses they will see it as a more risk, hassle and cost than worthwhile from a profit perspective.
I have recently had what looks like some success in encouraging a business to accept Bitcoin- my green coffee bean supplier- here's how I did it- #1035424
IMO online sellers are more likely to be open to accepting and more easily approached and asked.
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21 sats \ 4 replies \ @siggy47 OP 25 Jul
It is hard. I live near an enormous city, and there are very few businesses who accept it. I think PubKey in NYC only gets about 5% of sales paying in bitcoin. It has been a while since I visited, but the general consensus then was "save your SATs, spend fiat." I hope that philosophy has changed.
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36 sats \ 3 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 25 Jul
If anything from what I see the stack sats hodl and hoard narrative is getting stronger and the desire to spend sats p2p is increasingly a minority view. I suspect that the early difficulty in using LN payments put off a lot of people. The fact that LN is now a workable means of payment might turn that around but its not looking like its happening yet. In 2024 a bar/kebab shop in ChiangMai had weekly Wednesday night BTC meetups, everyday BTC payments and great kebabs! BTC appeared to be adding to the viability of the business so it can be done given the right circumstances - but still not easy.
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21 sats \ 2 replies \ @siggy47 OP 25 Jul
I'm hoping that stackers who have.been around for a while might decide, rather than sell for fiat, to spend some of their profits on the LN network. It's a private, no kyc way to enjoy their sats.
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36 sats \ 1 reply \ @Solomonsatoshi 25 Jul
I hope so too but there will be others afraid of exposing themselves to potential wrench attacks. The fiat powers (bankers and governments) sly strategy of obstructing BTC as a P2P payments protocol by allowing it as a taxed tracked and traced speculative commodity plaything, has been rather successful.
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 25 Jul
Very true.
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47 sats \ 2 replies \ @BlokchainB 25 Jul
SN is my bitcoin business 😆😁
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53 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 OP 25 Jul
YOU pull it off, and it's a worthwhile endeavour
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108 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 25 Jul
But eventually this is my long term 20+ year goal. Right now I am just trying to accumulate capital. Then in year 20 (or maybe sooner depending on how well bitcoin does) I can get into a business and provide a service. Maybe food service but the margins are so low. The dream would be a general contractor running a construction business on bitcoin.
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36 sats \ 0 replies \ @LAXITIVA 19h
Steak and shake sounds like you shake after you eat cause you are having a heart attack after and this sounds very appealing to me can someone take me?
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36 sats \ 1 reply \ @3a42879d5f 25 Jul
I think about this a lot, but don't have the capital to do anything with the idea. My three Bitcoin brick and mortar ideas are
  1. Makerspace (3d printers, laser cutters, etc. Memberships paid in sats)
  2. Bitcoin coworking space (Rentable desks, chairs, good Wi-Fi and printers)
  3. Retro games bar (Nintendo, Playstation, MS-DOS, Win95 games, junk food)
Memberships would be paid in sats, Makerspace and Coworking spaces could have Lightning Network smart locks. Bitcoin meetups on the weekend and training events in the evenings. Retro bar food and drink paid in sats, etc.
How to get people to actually pay in sats? Just copy Zaprite's model and offer steep discounts for doing so. Put a BTM in the entryway. Or make it the only option. Most people entering arcades are already trained to use the Arcade's NFC cards. There's gotta be a way to setup a pre-loaded Satscard for nearly the same experience.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Signal312 40m
I love the makerspace idea. But in my area, there's a publicly funded makerspace (it's part of a university), that would probably make a private version hard to sell.
For all these ideas - I think you'd need to be in a large city. It seems like those are the only ones where bitcoin businesses exist - like in Berlin, New York. There's got to be enough people who are into bitcoin to make it work.
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72 sats \ 1 reply \ @SatAttack 25 Jul
Hey @siggy47 nice post. I'm right there with you in wanting to use a business to proliferate bitcoins use just by encouraging it in a brick and mortar spot. My idea to do this is a bit boring but I think it would be effective.
A laundry mat! It's a nice tried and true business that should be able to run itself quickly. One washer and dryer in the place, the ones with the best lighting, will be rigged up to only accept lighting payments. The how and why will be posted and the price in fiat will be much cheaper than the other machines. Wifi and educational bitcoin material will be available in the sitting/waiting area. As people start to use the lightning-only machine, which would be inevitable but may take time, a second set of washer/dryer is converted to bitcoin only.
eventually you have a nice business, a nice hub for people to learn and use bitcoin, and a nice big step towards the bitcoin world we would all like to see!
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 25 Jul
You're in good company. Our fearless leader, @k00b is thinking the same thing. Read through all the replies, and you can hear about my limited laundromat experience too.
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52 sats \ 1 reply \ @jasonb 25 Jul
Do you mind sharing if you live in the city or upstate?
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50 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 25 Jul
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36 sats \ 0 replies \ @jakoyoh629 25 Jul
I'm totally your first customer! Never set foot in the US. This might just be my moment! Ahah
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36 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT 25 Jul
I don't understand how anyone could be bored in retirement... I have so many things I'd like to do.
Is it a business to make money or some kind of hobby business?
For me, I'd would like to do some part time or gig type business. I'm going to be homeschooling the kids which will take first precedence. So it will need to be something that I can do around that.
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53 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 25 Jul
I haven't settled on a definite plan, but I will probably look to partner with younger, more energetic local bitcoiners. I have met a few through meetups.
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67 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 25 Jul
What should I say? @aljaz already said it perfectly..
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36 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan 25 Jul
nice -- yeeeees, definitely. Real-world, bitcoin-focused places the world neeeedz
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36 sats \ 0 replies \ @ZeroFade_0xa8 25 Jul
Love this perspective, and respect the clarity of your reasoning I agree that bitcoin culture and P2P use are getting overshadowed by fiat gains. Seeing people l take real-world risks to build local bitcoin ecosystems is inspiring. I’m not there yet myself, but I’m definitely interested in small, local bitcoin businesses. It would be great to hear from other stackers who are taking steps in this direction or looking for ideas. Wishing you all the best if you decide to take the leap!
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41 sats \ 1 reply \ @orto 25 Jul
Yours is a very nice thought. Don't give up.
I'm thinking about a business working not local but global: There are a lot of plastic parts in the products we use. They wear out over time. In fact, since the very old products are no longer produced, spare parts cannot be found. Some products are used far away from the countries where they are produced. Parts logistics are always a problem.
I'm thinking of an archive of 3D printable spare parts files website that grows over time. Everyone can contribute. But only bitcoin will be used for the sale.
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15 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 25 Jul
That seems like a great idea. 3D makes the one off parts manufacturing economically viable, and the availability might "encourage" (force?) the buyer to use and maybe learn about bitcoin.
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36 sats \ 0 replies \ @Macoy31 25 Jul outlawed
stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.