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16 sats \ 20 replies \ @aljaz OP 20 Aug \ parent \ on: What is PROPERTY? BooksAndArticles
Governments are plunder. They don't take the role, you are forced into this relationship at birth.
be aware: you are talking with a gov agent
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Because you cannot refute my arguments with convincing, reasoned responses, you try to shoot the messenger with false accusations.
Your antipathy toward governments does not withstand a contest of ideas.
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Perhaps, but without the enforcement of property rights by governments there are no consistent property rights- only plunder and the law of the jungle.
How you can have reliable property rights regarding physical and intellectual property, without government to defend, impose and enforce those rights?
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government is eroding property rights, not enforcing them, thats the point.
Nobody really owns their land/house anymore, theres only a few countries left without at least some kind of property tax. Which means you don't own shit because if you don't pay the tax sooner or later the goons from the government will come kick you out of YOUR land because you owe they taxes for YOUR property.
And that is done by monopolizing violence, preventing you to protect your own property (including yourself) because they will throw you in jail for that. You don't own anything, you've just been given permission to use it while you're subscribed to the worst service under the sun, to which subscription was forced upon you at birth
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So you want the property law of the jungle where if I am stronger than you I can forcefully take your property?
I doubt most people would want that and that is why we have governments.
Yes the monopolise the 'lawful' use of violence because they make it their business to create a jurisdiction within which property rights are recognised and enforced.
Without governments, funded by taxes, all you would have is the law of the jungle.
Is that what you want?
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you assume that people don't defend their property or won't make coalition, partnerships, pay enforcement agencies on a free market to enforce the rules?
society doesn't collapse because you don't have a fat bureaucrat 1000km away telling you want is best for you and how you should live your life. Many animals manage to establish societies and live in groups yet somehow humans need to have a ruler because otherwise everything falls apart?
tribes existed for a long time before any nation state government started imposing their will and involving itself with every aspect of your life. You just assume that because you can't think of a different way that this is the only way. Services that governments provide can (and are usually done much better) be provided by businesses as that is exactly what a government is suppose to be - a service. Not a tyranny of majority that doesn't exist, with ever expanding coercion and singular power across everything in your life.
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I am certain people will quite urgently make a 'coalition'...its also called a government.
Governments via taxes are precisely the paid 'enforcement agencies' that enforce property rights.
Remove government and most people will very rapidly, almost in a panic, seek to form one!
Because it is governments that secure and fairly governed property rights can be established.
Nowhere ever has any other reality existed.
Sure governments are flawed -more or less and approximately in proportion to the laziness and apathy of the people they govern, but they are a fundamental requirement if you want to have any possibility consistent and fair property rights.
Without government you can and may well try to defend your 'property rights', but if someone is stronger they will nevertheless be able take 'your property' from you.
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I was born and raised in Somalia, so I witnessed firsthand that life can function with little to no state.
When the state collapsed in 1991, everything related to governance fell apart completely. You could find machine guns everywhere, sometimes for free, and even tanks if you wanted.
The first five years were absolute chaos, especially in the main cities, because society went from 100% state control to almost none.
But by the late ’90s and early 2000s, in the city where I grew up, life actually became better than in many places with functioning states.
There was almost no centralized administration, yet the city had one of the best telecommunications networks, excellent doctors, good schools, and remarkable peace. People could walk around with thousands of dollars without fear of robbery, and the high level of freedom.
I am not saying everything was 100% perfect but the lesson learned is that societies, tribes, and individuals can govern themselves and provide state services through private businesses. But the main weakness was that people didn’t have plan for stopping outside interventions, which eventually destroyed and gave rise the current situation.
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Yes in Somalia in the lack of a centralised internationally recognised government people reverted to operating under traditional clan based common law and Sharia Courts also became powerful.
The problem was if you were a member of a small less powerful clan and had a dispute with someone from a more powerful one.
And as you note it left all Somalia open to and vulnerable to outside intervention many led by US agencies who disliked the proliferation of what they saw as support and security for terrorist Islamic organisations.
You do not mention where you reside now but clearly it is not Somalia - the state of confusion and tension between the government eventually installed in some parts and continued warring for control by multiple factions goes on.
Any devoted advocate of Libertarian principles is welcome to go live in Somalia and experience life under clan based and Sharia law- but fuck all if any ever have because for most rational people it would be an utter shithole to live in if you had the option of instead moving to somewhere with stable government and consistent rule of law not dependent upon which family, clan or religion you belong to.
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i understand now why you love governments so much @Solomonsatoshi, its because you think you know everything better than anyone, no matter how close to the thing they are. its a match made in heaven and explains everything very clearly.
i think for starters we need to define the terms we're using, because narrow contract enforcement agency is very far from what nowadays government looks.
contract enforcement on voluntary basis is VERY different to the extortion the governments of the world are doing now where you are forced into a relationship you never wanted nor needed in most cases.
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Most people want the protection of government - for good reason.
It is the only proven reliable way to enable consistent property rights.
What you are proposing is everyone must defend themselves, form a group or hire muscle to protect their property- that's closer to mafia or law of the jungle.
At least with governments everyone within a jurisdiction comes under the same laws and agencies of enforcement and has some ability to change or have influence over the government they are subject to.
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the government is mafia - because if you don't pay them they will come and fuck you up. what i'm proposing is that people have a choice and are not forced into anything, which is exactly the opposite of what you're advocating for because now I MUST pay whatever taxes or regulation the government wants to impose on me otherwise they come and take my shit, my freedom or my life. I have no choice, I can leave but I can only do it on their terms, unless I'm willing to go into the wilderness and throw my passport away and have no contact with "civilized world".
You seem to be very eager to give up on everything just because of a potential scenario yet don't see that all of this is already happening to you, you've just been told its the best way. Your property is not being protected, its being take away from you. at an exceptionally high rate.