My Beef with No-KYC cheerleaders. \ stacker news ~bitcoin

673 sats \ 50 boost \ 22 comments \ @BlokchainB 16 Feb 2022 bitcoin

Obtaining no-KYC stats are no doubt the most desirable way to get sats. The future we face is full of uncertainty and trending to loss of civil liberties and freedom. So it is imperative that we try our best to protect our privacy. But the current options we currently have just flat out suck.

Here is a list of items the privacy community says to use and my beef with these

Bisq- The liquidity is awful. You must keep your computer on at all times to buy and sell. The user experience overall is horrible so many different tabs and steps to follow. But my biggest beef is you need No-KYC sats first to even make your first purchase for collateral. So already it’s a catch 22.
ATMs - So I’m supposed to wear a mask get a fake burner number and then go to an ATM point a phone at it after purchase and then walk out. Again you are limited to a max before you have to show ID. Usually you are paying an awful spread (worse than Bisq). This provides reasonable privacy but if the government really wanted to dig into your cash flows I don’t think it would be too hard for them to track you buying sats this way. It feels more like a fools game than an actual way of getting No-KYC sats. I think people do this to make themselves feel better since this is somewhat reasonable way to avoid KYC.
Mine it - This is feasible if you have cheap power. And space to deal with miner noise. If you are living in a poor area or in a city with killer price for electricity again this again is fallacy. If you wanted $200 of no-kyc sats in a short time frame mining would be a horrible way to go. Buying an s9 and hoping to get the sat equivalent of a market buy would take years and that’s if mining difficulty doesn’t blow you up.
Work for it - This is legitimate too but trying to offer goods and services in a currency that isn’t legal tender can be a nightmare tax wise plus you are only offering these services to hardcore Bitcoiners. The market isn’t fully developed to make this a reality yet. And again this doesn’t work in poor and rural communities. They barely can find work in fiat let alone in Bitcoin. Expecting everyone to enter the digital economy (programming, blogs, podcasting, media, influencer) just isn’t for everyone
Buy from a friend- This one is laughable. Most Bitcoiners aren’t trying to sell and plus if they do it’s Highly unlikely they are selling you non-KYC sats. Yes you can try Plausible deniability but that can only get you so far. If the government wants you good luck trying to explain those two words to the authorities.

And that’s it. These are your options! Now we do have forward privacy tools that are used which can help your privacy going forward but getting initial privacy is very tough.

I speak on this because privacy is starting to feel elitist. Those who are poor/rural/limited technically are just out of luck. They must use regulated exchanges and dox themselves for a chance to fight financial oppression. Bitcoin and privacy should be for all.

Lastly, the same folks who champion privacy and no-kyc celebrate when the price pumps. I find this incredibly contradictory. The fiat flows are not coming from bisq or ATM buys it’s coming from the masses who are more than likely regulated /KYC’ed in some shape or form. If you are going to be pumping privacy just know the price Appreciation is not coming from non-kyc buys!

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708 sats \ 1 reply \ @ODELL 16 Feb 2022

Everything has tradeoffs. It is important as a community to educate newcomers on the risks and tradeoffs of using regulated services and let them make an educated decision based on that information. Most are not aware of the privacy risks of using regulated bitcoin services.

With that said, here are my responses point by point.

Liquidity is a chicken and egg problem. If more people use it then it will have better liquidity. Have to start somewhere. Agree the UX is not great, but it is not horrible once you get comfortable with it, hodlhodl has a better UX that you may consider.
Even if you dont wear a mask or use a burner it is a massive privacy improvement over full KYC onboarding on a regulated service.
Mining is not for everyone but it is more accessible than mainstream influencers would have you believe. Especially in the US where we have residential rates much lower than most of the developed world.
This will get easier as adoption increases.
Same as above.

I speak on this because privacy is starting to feel elitist. Those who are poor/rural/limited technically are just out of luck. They must use regulated exchanges and dox themselves for a chance to fight financial oppression. Bitcoin and privacy should be for all.

There are many people that are locked out of the traditional regulated financial system. These people are also locked out of regulated bitcoin services. Bitcoin ATM usage is higher in poorer neighborhoods, this is not a coincidence.

I do not understand the attempt to draw extreme scenarios here. It is a matter of tradeoffs and reducing risk, not eliminating risk altogether. Small improvements based on educated decisions can bring substantial benefits in terms of privacy, for example limiting your KYC exposure to a single bitcoin onramp rather than signing up for a handful of KYC services as many newcomers do.

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @deleted231216 16 Feb 2022

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123 sats \ 1 reply \ @nout 17 Feb 2022

To extend on your beef, the one thing that I would recommend to folks is to learn what tools are used by people who's life 100% depends on having privacy and anonymity. I think it's a good idea to explore what actually happens in dark net, how are vendors connecting with customers, how they conclude their (mostly illegal) business. You will learn that they are not using majority of the tools that everyone presents as "privacy tools". You will probably find "the Bible" and learn about the right setup. You will learn their opinions about Bitcoin...

And separately just to let it out: Bisq UX sucks - and I wonder if it's correlated to it being on Java FX. If they would start electron app with JS/TS, it would be probably 100x easier to find a good dev with solid UX feel. The application could literally just have following input/select boxes:

Which market? (e.g. USD)
Which methods? (Venmo, Zelle...)
Buy or Sell?
How much?
A button that says "Find me the best offer"

And simple algorithm could just pick the top offer that matches this request and if there's none it could automatically create new offer. Next time the UI would just remember all my settings and so I would just click on "Find me the best offer"... The UI could be as smooth as Muun wallet, it could have delayed backup, etc.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nout 17 Feb 2022

Also privacy is a journey - from the first time your install ad-blocker to the time you read the full The Hitchhiker’s Guide to Online Anonymity :)

732 sats \ 3 replies \ @deleted231216 16 Feb 2022

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1 sat \ 2 replies \ @avg 17 Feb 2022

What do you do to earn BTC?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @deleted231216 17 Feb 2022

Remote web development work (self-taught, mostly HTML, CSS, JS, PHP and SQL, plus Linux sysadmin).

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @avg 17 Feb 2022

Cool, do you have dev capacity atm? How can I contact you?

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @gunson 17 Feb 2022 freebie

I think you make some good points, although many of these options are improving.

The more people that have a fully non KYC stack, the better. But forward privacy is good too as you say - helps confuse surveillance companies, and keeps your behaviour private.

But the gov still knows the rough size of your stack. So, assuming you hold your own keys, we rely on having the power to control our Bitcoin. We have to stay strong to avoid pressure of 6102 style confiscation - I think a powerful industry (built off the back of KYC compliance) helps combat this actually.

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @cointastical 19 Feb 2022

Buy from a friend- This one is laughable. Most Bitcoiners aren’t trying to sell and plus if they do it’s Highly unlikely they are selling you non-KYC sats. Yes you can try Plausible deniability but that can only get you so far. If the government wants you good luck trying to explain those two words to the authorities.

At this very moment, there are people out there who have bitcoin or earn bitcoin (e.g., mining, freelancing, whatever) and are saying ... "Damn, I need some cash right now. I wish there was someone I knew who was buying, and would pay cash so it would be a No-KYC transaction." So maybe you just haven't exhausted your circle (and your circle's circle) to find such a person.

Bisq- The liquidity is awful. You must keep your computer on at all times to buy and sell. The user experience overall is horrible so many different tabs and steps to follow. But my biggest beef is you need No-KYC sats first to even make your first purchase for collateral. So already it’s a catch 22.

There's also HodlHodl, LocalCoinSwap, LocalCryptos, AgoraDesk, and some shitcoin ones that are No-KYC as well. See:

Person-to-Person bitcoin Trading Exchanges https://cointastical.github.io/P2P-Trading-Exchanges

Also, P2P platforms do a good job of matchmaking where repeat buyers are finding repeat sellers (and vice-versa). But local, in-person / face-to-face transaction are nowadays pretty rare. It's much harder to find a seller, locally, looking for in-person, cash payment than it is for something like a Zelle or Cash App payment.

But, ... if you put out a listing that you are Buying, local, in-person, ... sure you might have to way a few days (or weeks) to get a seller, but that eventually does happen, and you then get a chance to meet the person. If they are selling today, they might sell to you again. If they want that, you then have their number.

You can bump up your offer price to create an incentive for a seller to do an in-person cash trade with you -- one that might not otherwise have been willing to spend the time selling via in-person, face-to-face (it's not a very convenient method, ... requiring an investment of time far higher than ). Think of it as the price for the matchmaking. Eventually you'll find a repeat seller that will continue selling to you, without requiring such a high markup.

tl;dr: It takes two to tango, and there are sellers out there waiting on buyers

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB OP 20 Feb 2022

Replies like these aren’t based in reality. Re read the post. People who are poor and living in rural communities aren’t going to do these methods.

So to buy p2p I have to sit around and wait for Someone to sell from their mining/earning stash which I already stated these aren’t really practical now. Also you have to becareful crime can happen when doing in-person meetups.

No one is paying people in Bitcoin on a regular basis why would they when you can pay cash?

None of the p2p solutions you mentioned work on a mobile phone and require collateral which isn’t easy to come by when starting from zero.

“tl;dr: It takes two to tango, and there are sellers out there waiting on buyers”

Not on bisq. I check it every so often and I see the same sell orders selling at the “privacy” premium.

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @0388215539 18 Feb 2022 freebie

I've been getting non-kyc coins since ~2016. I don't think most of my clients care about tax as what I charge doesn't usually represent large invoices.

I could totally be working from a rural community (in fact that's a move I've been considering more lately).

And no, I wouldn't classify most of my clients as "hardcore Bitcoiners". In fact I'd think hardcore bitcoiners would probably not want to get rid of their sats. My clients usually get attracted by the 20% discount I offer if paid in BTC instead.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @stefandiamante 16 Feb 2022 freebie

Well stated. These are all points I've been pondering myself lately and plan to tackle in my own articles soon. When it comes to KYC/AML laws (which don't stop crime and only serve to hamper law-abiding citizens), the better approach is to champion the end of such laws rather than punch down on other Bitcoiners. Also, too many Bitcoin privacy elitists are swallowing Monero bro FUD. Monero folks, by and large, have a very different outlook and expectation for the future. It's white-pilled (Bitcoin) vs. black-pilled (Monero).

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @phaedrus 17 Feb 2022

Why is buying from a friend laughable?

Finding local Bitcoin meetup and buying from people directly is definitely doable. Even if that person got it from Coinbase, nobody can track that they sold it to you for cash, right? Or what am I missing?

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @cozy 16 Feb 2022

💯

I totally agree, but there are no perfect solutions to privacy and decentralization--these goals must be iterated towards forever. I love the criticism, great stuff. We need to work on realistic solutions. Some optimisitc developments worth noting:

Bisq is getting better, allegedly adding lightning soon. Will CashApp add lightning withdrawl? How cheap can Intel make mining, how can we make nodes and mining as cheap and accessible as possible?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @moel 17 Feb 2022

In Europe we are blessed with at least three companies that strive to give you cheap non-KYC Bitcoins.... These are:

They all are based in Switzerland. I see arbitrage opportunities here.

27 sats \ 0 replies \ @dergigi 18 Feb 2022

They are KYC-light, not no-KYC. You are doxxed via your bank.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @DarthCoin 17 Feb 2022

Yes, you are right. Some people are not able to use those 5 points are their capabilities are not enough to use them. That's why I wrote these 2 guides about how simple is to get rid of traces when you buy from a KYC source. Yes, you need to have some good knowledge about Bitcoin in order to follow these guides. But when you start as a noob, I don't think is such a big deal to buy from KYC sources, start learning more about BTC, learn how to use many wallets and apps/solutions. NOBODY will come after you to say "hey you bought x amount of BTC on x exchange". That's total BS scare tactic and never happen. Even if it happen, just say "fuck off, you have no jurisdiction and authority over my own money".

Then start slowly doing this: https://darthcoin.substack.com/p/lightning-cleaning-machine and https://darthcoin.substack.com/p/node-liquidity-guide

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @BlokchainB OP 20 Feb 2022

These guides are super heavy. Unless you have tons of time and resources. Your average person isn’t going to do this. Something like this are for tech heads but others could care less.

Most people don’t care about learning and just want to protect their money (Think about the masses who blindly save via 401(k) and don’t do the research to figure out what they are invested in) plus have forward privacy tools been put to the test? Also don’t forget this occurs extra cost! Why my stance is still the same privacy is for those who have resources.

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 20 Feb 2022

Yes, you are right, all these years, I notice that many people simply don't want to read and learn. I still have a little faith and I write these guides, for people that know some base stuff but are asking more. So I do like step by step, teaching with them.

If there are others interested, they can share the guides. Is their problem not mine anymore. I just want to share my accumulated knowledge in all these 10 years in Bitcoinlandia.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheBTCManual 17 Feb 2022

That's how the game works, unfortunately, you have to pay for privacy, personally, I think some privacy is better than zero privacy and non-KYC bitcoin is a spectrum. The non KYC crowd provide solutions that are appliable to them and sure they are the better options but there are mid range options people can use

I personally recommend people stack on a lightning wallet or liquid wallet and they can submarine swap and or use a coinjoin after. It is far cheaper than the options above and you can start with any amount and just start building your LN or L-BTC balance and once its practical pay for a bit more privacy as you move into cold storage

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Webuser 17 Feb 2022

There needs to be some more improvements in this industry to allow people to have privacy and experience the advantages that would otherwise only be available with KYC. It can be difficult or be too expensive to use methods which do not require KYC. This often takes too much effort and makes people not want to embrace this new financial system.

Many might not qualify for KYC even if was a last resort. This is why there needs to be more of a focus on privacy and not so much regulation. A lot of the services that are help with non KYC take advantage of the user for convenience.