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What I *still* cannot understand is the tone-deafness and absolute fantasy...
1714 sats \ 38 comments \ @anon 20h bitcoin
That some Bitcoiners have that somehow the government 'accepts' or 'will accept' Bitcoin's use as regular money. The government as an institution (and when I say government I mean most Western governments) have ZERO incentives to allow Bitcoin to just 'be money'.
Governments want complete and total control over 'what is money' and laws and regulations are specifically designed to shred privacy + eliminate the practicality of using private-sector money - Bitcoin in this case that's independent of the State.
Imagine that over time hundreds of thousands, even millions of people decide to 'use Bitcoin' as money in their daily lives. Shopping, groceries, gas, paying for clothes, paying their rent etc just daily expenses.
How many of the 'average people' would calculate the daily tax liabilities because Bitcoin was up 1% relative to the day before when they received the Bitcoin... well almost Zero. NOBODY from the general public is going to calculate their tax responsibilities on a cup of coffee or stick of gum.
Bitcoin to governments is a speculative commodity, a trading item it is NOT money. It is not supposed to BE money (to the powers that be) it is NOT supposed to separate Money and State because that would necessitate giving up the fiat-debt-central banking monopoly that clearly is failing so many citizens.
All these tools, all these wallets, government can and WILL change the rules at any time so that everything is either completely impractical or 'illegal' in the sense of being an MSB (money-services-business) so that people can't use Bitcoin in-mass easily.
Custodial cashu (which is think is pretty cool in some cases?) - illegal it's an MSB. Coinjoin? Illegal it's not custodial but can "hide illicit funds" therefor it's not allowed. Buying a coffee or gum? Well make sure you pay the tax on each zap, each transaction to include each Lightning channel opening... record everything each and every microzap and the associated fees it's the law!
Don't know how to do that? Well that's too bad Bitcoin is for 'trading' only not for spending: everything needs to be "in one wallet" and never move other then when you sell it for fiat which you ALWAYS have to go back to.
Want to use Bitcoin with your friends or family, want to buy something, want to use it semi-anonymously? Well if any of those 'sats' are used without full disclosure, full transparency... then it's 'illegal' and 'not allowed'. Nothing that 'bypasses' the fiat issued by government.
Now do ANY of these same rules really apply when using fiat? No.
There are open-air drug markets in most large Western cities all fueled by fiat... Does anyone care? No.
Frequently banks and financiers use fiat illicitly - is Fiat banned or restricted? No.
Fiat loses value constantly, people know how bad inflation is, how prices keep "going up" as Fiat debases but are they encouraged or educated to use an alternative? Something 'hard' with a fixed supply based on Energy?
No. Because that would rock the boat and take control away from the 'powers that be' and their monopoly issuing Money.
Bitcoin isn't perfect but it is the best most realistic hope of separating Money and State and because of this governments are TOTALLY OPPOSED.
I HATE the fact that I don't want to post this under a nym, that Bitcoiners should have a real, articulable fear of what the future holds if there ever were a REAL push to use Bitcoin and Bitcoin-wallets daily. Governments are TOTALLY opposed to it, to anything at any time that's designed to take influence away from central banks and cut out the 'middleman...' giving citizens MORE tools with which to mange their ENERGY and time.
All of these tools being developed are great - Lightning, Cashu, Swaps, Non-KYC markets, fediments even coinjoins sometimes when they make sense... but NONE of these tools change the reality that government does NOT accept Bitcoin as money.
The sooner we acknowledge this and deal with it the better we can address it ethically and fully, legally, with long-term solutions that bring about REAL adoption not just wallets-in-the-shadows (like Cashu) before they get de-listed and 'shut down.'
And when I say 'shut down' i mean delisted from app stores, inaccessible to 'normies' while the President of the United States runs his crypto scams and 'supports crypto' as long as it makes him rich.
What a terrifying reality.
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541 sats \ 2 replies \ @justin_shocknet 16h
Hipster cope.
The US natsec apparatus created Bitcoin because factions within the government have every reason to make it the world reserve.
Governments are not monolithic, they're a battleground for nationalists and globalists, and nationalists desperately need to evict the globalist bankers undermining their sovereignty.
Recent regime change in the US has catalyzed this, tariffs, Bitcoin, stables, cutting the balls off the prosecution vs. Storm, CZ, and others... ETF scale monetization, institutional collateralization, all undermine those that benefit from the Triffin Dilemma and the fiat order.
With the flip of the switch [they] could dump your purchasing power 99%, and their sigint would leave you nowhere to hide, your bravado is an illusion they created for you at an IC think tank.
Cashu
thanks for the lol
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @anon 15h
I'm going to respectfully respond to this.
within the government have every reason to make it the world reserve.
The President of the United States has repeatedly said that he wants the Dollar to be "the standard" everywhere and forever... that "losing the standard" is like losing a war.
In other words he wants the Dollar to be the standard, not crypto and certainly not Bitcoin.
and nationalists desperately need to evict the globalist bankers undermining their sovereignty.
The US government cannot evict itself out of a wet paper bag. It is 38 trillion in debt, and adding fast, argues with itself constantly and any 'master plan' to me just seems silly. What the hell is it?
all undermine those that benefit from the Triffin Dilemma and the fiat order.
I would be surprised if there is any master plan from the administration... although I could be wrong. I think they just react to things day by day.
Cashu. thanks for the lol
Bitcoin cannot operate without some level of trust. It is impossible to have the entire world on chain even if they wanted to be and sometimes people just want to send a few thousand sats they don't care about cold-storage sovereignty and 100-year timelines. IMO if cashu is adopted enough (for something like signal) watch all the governments line up to ban it.
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223 sats \ 0 replies \ @justin_shocknet 15h
"The dollar", collateralized by gold and Bitcoin instead of debt, bypassing the SWIFT system and therefore foreign central banks that manipulate exchange rates to prop up other fiats is not the same dollar the globalists designed.
The dollar isn't going anywhere, it'll take decades to unwind all the debt denominated it without a (violent) global collapse. To do that, it simply has to eat or "milkshake" every other fiat that is unfit to exist until there is one final pair, BTCUSD.
The US government cannot evict itself out of a wet paper bag. It is 38 trillion in debt ... argues with itself
Comprehension skill issue, THERE IS NO US GOVERNMENT, only factions that battle over institutions. Debt is the dollar, the dollar is backed by debt. See above. The dollar is being re-collateralized.
I would be surprised if there is any master plan from the administration
You're probably the same kind of person that shit a kitten then when a think tank did a limited hangout with project 2025.
I think they just react to things day by day.
Yea, right... effectively the unlimited resources of military planners, intelligence agencies, the most powerful businesses... and no one has any more foresight than you.
When Trump talks, how many people are listening? Ever consider the fact its not just for retards watching fox news but every private and public intelligence analyst in the world?
If they can write a script for a CIA movie or the West Wing, they can write an operational plan.
Bitcoin cannot operate without some level of trust.
That's why it needs to be localized to the extreme, household and small business: see Lightning.Pub
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76 sats \ 6 replies \ @fiatbad 16h
Absolutely, 100%. Well said.
This is why I constantly sound like a Bitcoin bear around these parts. Bitcoiners are comforted by Bitcoin's apparent inevitability. While they may not be wrong, they are complacent in allowing the fiat system to go on FAR longer than it needs to.
Due to the reasons OP mentions in this thread, Bitcoin will NEVER happen as a "peaceful revolution". It WILL require a certain level of actual revolution.... probably requiring some violence and outright rebellion.
Sure, Bitcoin might still overtake fiat in a couple hundred years. But why are we okay with that awful narrative. Fuck that. Fuck this comment: #1261675
Take control and start standing up for what's right! I feel very alone in this fight, even though I know I'm surrounded by people who want the same thing. They just aren't willing to fight for it.
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177 sats \ 2 replies \ @anon 15h
probably requiring some violence and outright rebellion.
Physical violence I'm NOT advocating for that... it's not what nerds do. But this is a digital and monetary revolution and eventually we have to treat it that way.
If the Cashu mint was adopted enough it would be 'banned' just the same as Samurai, Wasabi (they shut themselves down) Stacker News the "MSB" or Phoenix Wallet + WoS a year ago.
Yes those 2 are back in the US but they are one election away from being 'banned' again and if the democrats had their way they would KYC everything no exceptions all the wallet software could get mandatory-KYC/removed from app stores.
Maybe in 100 years it would 'work itself out' but we will all be gone by then. We have to win hearts and minds and central bankers/the PTB don't have our best interests in mind.
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100 sats \ 1 reply \ @fiatbad 15h
We have to win hearts and minds and central bankers/the PTB don't have our best interests in mind.
My thoughts exactly. Yet, I get strong resistance from this community.
I've been wondering, for a long time, whether Roger Ver was right all along....
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 15h
I don't understand why people don't make the connection. Everyone knows what inflation is, that prices keep going up (which means fiat keeps losing value) everyone knows western governments are hopelessly in debt especially the US. The debt bomb/crisis/Armageddon will happen eventually...
And Bitcoin is right there, waiting.
Hopefully the wallets are finally good enough right now in UI and UX to onboard 'normie' people with an OK on-chain experience, and a GOOD Lightning/Cashu/LSP ready to go out of the box.
Bitcoin gets sold as a 'get rich quick' but it's really a massive revolution.
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33 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 15h
that is the homo fiatus...
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @SimpleStacker 7h
I want to know what exactly it is you expect bitcoiners to do? Violence? really?
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @fiatbad 1h
I would prefer it not get to violence. However, using history as a guide, I don’t believe it’s possible. I think “The Creature from Jekyll Island” (TCFJI) is only allowing Bitcoin to exist today because Bitcoin is not threatening their system at all. I think they probably orchestrated something in the early days (2015-ish) of Bitcoin to ensure it would remain benign. If and when Bitcoin starts to seriously threaten the fiat system, they will turn this into a real fight.
They won’t attack it directly. They’ll start a global war or something, and use the cover of the war to destroy small Bitcoin communities and node runners.
There are only 3 possible outcomes.
  1. Bitcoin remains a KYC’d, “investment”. Digital Gold. It NEVER threatens the fiat system.
  2. People start using Bitcoin for trade and daily transactions so much that the fiat system becomes seriously threatened. TCFJI can’t do anything about it because there are so many node runners and hodlers around the globe. Bitcoin pulls off the trojan horse narrative.
  3. People start using Bitcoin for trade and daily transactions so much that the fiat system becomes seriously threatened. TCFJI fights back. They have infinite resources, and have been preparing for decades. Bitcoiners are faced with a choice to fight or to lay low and let TCFJI execute their plans, thus continuing to enslave the world.
I think #2 is what Bitcoiners think is going to happen, and I think they’re wrong. Option #1 and #3 are much more likely, in my opinion. Option #2 is naive.
It’s not that I want violence. It’s that I want to see Bitcoiners ready to take it that far if need be. There needs to be a greater distaste for fiat. I’m not saying we should start a rebellion tomorrow. I’d be satisfied if I just saw more of an effort to STOP using fiat, even if it means being seriously inconvenienced or jailed.
I don’t want to see violence, but I’d like to see a sense of urgency which I feel is non-existent in the current culture.
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @DannyM 15h
We're cypherpunks, our movement does not care about them.
We don't care what's legal tender in the us, we don't care if Europe passes chat control, we don't care if we get called terrorists or any other names.
We are Goldstein, Goldstein will always be persecuted, Goldstein has and will be killed multiple times, but will never die.
Cypherpunks write code. Math is law. You cannot ban merkle trees, you cannot stop us.
We are many, we are pseudonymous, we are an army, we do not forgive transgressions against math, we do not forget our ways, expect us to grow stronger the more heads you cut. We are Cypherpunks, we are Hydra, we are Goldstein
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @SwapMarket 15h
Yes, it may never become legal tender in most of the civilized world. We must pay our bills in fiat and hide our bitcoin stash to avoid CGT and wealth tax. But there are crypto friendly countries and ways to spend it below the radar.
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1055 sats \ 22 replies \ @DarthCoin 20h
but NONE of these tools change the reality that government does NOT accept Bitcoin as money.
Truth. I would add: why people should care if gov accept or not their sats? In fact they should REJECT TOTALLY paying any gov with their sats. GOVERNMENTS ARE CORPORATIONS, remember?
What you get back if you give to a gov your sats? Slavery? Tyranny? You have to be total insane to give your BTC to any gov or so called "bitcoin treasury".
The sad reality nowadays is this:
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500 sats \ 21 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 16h
Yes but the point is that most people will remain obedient to the government. Therefore the chances of Bitcoin ever being widely enough adopted to be a viable everyday MoE are about the same as the chances of Linux ever overcoming the corporate state surveillance dominance of Windows, Microsoft and Google. Most people are not going to break the law to gain monetary freedom because most people have been trained and corralled not to by the state and history. The government do not care much if you go live in the forest in a sackcloth citadel- as long as most citizens still obediently use the state monopoly fiat currency. Most Bitcoiners are in tragic cowering denial of the brutal reality the above post describes. Bitcoin has already been largely captured and controlled, kyced and taxed, as a harmless speculative commodity, increasingly held in the cold store custody of corporate associates of the bankers and government. The P2P MoE utility-adoption of Bitcoin has been very cunningly and successfully obstructed.
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2 sats \ 13 replies \ @CliffBadger 16h
You of all people must know there are a good many examples throughout history where superior strategy overcame sheer quantity of soldiers.
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2 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 16h
#1264988
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0 sats \ 11 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 15h
Yes but does a truly decentralised P2P payments algorithm even have the capacity to have a conscious strategy vs the worlds most powerful and deeply entrenched fiat debt slavery bankers cartel that owns most governments and their military-industrial complex imperatives?
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21 sats \ 10 replies \ @CliffBadger 13h
It's an unconcious strategy. That's why it's superior. We didn't plan the route from drug dealing to online poker to the presidency. It just worked, because people instinctively seek out the best form of money as a means of self-preservation, elites included. Your nihilistic framework doesn't explain the success we've already attained.
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0 sats \ 9 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 13h
A declining empire and its weak and debasing currency is certainly helpful but there is no such thing as an unconscious strategy. That is a pure oxymoron nonsense. Strategy must be conscious to be strategy.
There is also nothing nihilistic about my worldview. On the contrary I constantly point out that humans are very much a competitive and conscious life form that forms groups for security and economic advantage and that in that context all analysis must be considered. Evolution is not nihilistic but scientific.
Your implied assertion that governments are inherently 'wrong' or 'inefficient' is lacking in logic, evidence and historical proof of work. Just because markets can in many cases but not all, work well when operating under the benign oversight of good government does not mean government is not important. The history, logic and evidence all strongly indicate governments are a significant factor in the wealth of nations.
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21 sats \ 8 replies \ @CliffBadger 13h
Your implied assertion that governments are inherently 'wrong' or 'inefficient' is lacking in logic, evidence and historical proof of work.
The adoption of Bitcoin as global reserve currency and subsequent world peace is evidence that statism failed.
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0 sats \ 7 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 13h
No, it would only be a manifestation of a post industrial digital era gold analogue. There would still be governments, perhaps slightly more accountable and honest and significantly less owned and controlled by rentseeking debt slavery Jewish bankers.
Bitcoin use for trade payments does not even account for 0.00000001% of global trade suggesting that the state imposed fiat MoE strategic monopoly remains largely intact.
Bitcoin has already been largely slyly subverted into a harmless speculative commodity plaything role where it is taxed and tracked and traced and increasingly held in the cold custody of bankers associates who never allow it to be used for MoE. Much like they did with gold already...
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100 sats \ 6 replies \ @unboiled 14h
The government do not care much if you go live in the forest in a sackcloth citadel- as long as most citizens still obediently use the state monopoly fiat currency.
It seems like an awkward stretch to assume that out of all the groups making up the current Western sphere, bitcoiners would be the ones "living in the forest in a sackcloth citadel."
Governments are failing at retaining citizen with means to finance their programs. The only reason for them to stay is if they have a way to insulate their funds from the government's greedy grasp.
Even the most patriotic/altruistic ones will be forced to leave if the governments start closing the escape hatches. Or end up in sackcloth with the rest of the net-negative (economically speaking) majority, clamoring for more distributions from a fantastical parallel dimension where modern monetary theory can be made to magically work by manifestation alone.
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0 sats \ 5 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 14h
We are and I am discussing/exploring the considerable obstruction that exists in western democracies to MoE use of Bitcoin. It does not seem you are addressing the same issue or responding to my comments in context. Regardless the first point was a dig at Darthcoin and reinforcing the point that for Bitcoin utility to be widespread and useful it needs to be able to be able to be used easily and lawfully- and currently it is not. Second point- I assume you are referring to taxation and fiat debasement (indirect taxation) but that is not the issue being discussed. Certainly agree western liberal democracies have been failing miserably to apply a coherent program of economic development for decades and are clearly now losing competitive advantage and strategic control of supply chains to China, but again, that is a different issue to what this thread was about.
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0 sats \ 4 replies \ @unboiled 14h
It does not seem you are addressing the same issue or responding to my comments in context. Regardless the first point was a dig at Darthcoin and reinforcing the point that for Bitcoin utility to be widespread and useful it needs to be able to be able to be used easily and lawfully- and currently it is not.
I'm using it both easily and lawfully, currently even multiple times a week. And have been doing so, albeit more infrequently, in at least 3 other jurisdictions over the past 6 months.
You're limiting your point of view by discounting how easy it is to use btc outside of wherever it is that you are not able to. How hard does your government need to tighten the screws until you start considering other options? And how hard until those with means do?
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0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 14h
You have changed the subject but ok lets go with that.
Where are you able to use Bitcoin as a convenient and legal MoE without complex and impractical recording of all transactions to account for potential capital gains tax liability?
El Salvador?
Where?
Not in most liberal western democracies- and in most autocracies MoE use is outright explicitly banned.
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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @unboiled 13h
You have changed the subject but ok lets go with that.
I'm a bit confused as to how I changed it. Didn't you write this?
for Bitcoin utility to be widespread and useful it needs to be able to be able to be used easily and lawfully
Anyway, it doesn't matter. Maybe a language barrier thing on my end.
Where are you able to use Bitcoin as a convenient and legal MoE without complex and impractical recording of all transactions to account for potential capital gains tax liability?
I have used it legally frequently in Germany, France and South Africa. Particularly SA has far more merchants compared to the other two. Other than those, a handful of purchases in Norway and Switzerland. All of those p2p.
Tax liability has only to do with where my tax residence is. At first that was Germany (ie. tax-free after holding for a year.) More recently I gave up that tax residency, meaning I'm not a tax resident anywhere anymore. Yes, that is possible. I'm looking at options if and where I would want to submit to a tax residency that does not obstruct my use of btc as money, but haven't found a good enough reason for pulling the trigger on that yet.
The only inconvenience my lack of a tax residency causes me is in two scenarios:
  1. Services that have KYC questionnaires demanding I provide a tax residency (more often than not, they have no reason to have that information), and
  2. Getting access to new fiat rails. For example, if I wanted to open a new bank account.
And even so: I record all my transactions anyway for other reasons, and that includes cap gains. It isn't as complex or impractical as you imagine it to be. Yes, recording those expenses is friction, but I find it worth it to be able to document how much we're benefiting from the deflationary nature of btc over time.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Solomonsatoshi 13h
I have heard cgs are exempt in Germany after an investment commodity is held for at least one year but can you confirm that evidence of time of acquisition and disposal must not be held? If it is not then how the fuck do they enforce it? You would still have to record each and every acquisition and disposal (ie every single use of BTC for MoE- time, date, exchange rate, amount in clear tabulated form thank you) in order to be able to demonstrate you have held for at least 12 months prior to disposal. Do you do that? If not you are(were) in clear breach of German tax law.
Now you say you have no tax jurisdiction- ok good luck with that but please recognise not many people will want to adopt that approach. For most people the benefits and security of tax residence far outweigh the costs...and going into no mans land is not going to be incentive for most people to adopt Bitcoin as their preferred MoE!
So lawful MoE use of Bitcoin is not available to citizens in the vast majority of global democracies and while we can just ignore the law and probably get away with it, most people will not want to do that either.
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12 sats \ 0 replies \ @Akg10s3 17h
It's a text worth reflecting on and considering! Thanks for sharing!
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 16h
To indulge in some antipodean Sunday morning optimism-
I have sometimes been called a CCP bot and statist for suggesting that China has won the trade war. All good fun. But if it is true, and the US/USD/petrodollar crony capitalist empire is now in terminal decline and headed for collapse, as I sometimes muse, then the existence of operationally ready to use alternatives to fiat dollars could have significant value.
Imagine the US loses the huge gamble it is now taking on AI.
https://dialecticaldispatches.substack.com/p/the-ai-race-isnt-about-chips-its
The US financial system then collapses under the unbearable weight of all that squandered fiat debt capital that was poured into the AI gamble to maintain economic advantage over a China that has already gained dominance in most other spheres of economic competition. All the subservient tributary monetary systems also collapse in domino effect The British Pound, the Euro, the Yen etc ...as we almost saw in the GFC. 'Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks'
China now dominates global supply chains and commodity markets and potentially can impose its payment protocols more widely...reverse engineering the banking hegemony Britain imposed upon China via The Opium Wars. Xis China Dream realisation.
But many countries and cultures will still be resistant to global Chinese domination- China does not have the broad cultural soft power that USA has enjoyed and still holds to some extent. Many large economic zones (like India, Europe, Japan, S.Korea and Australasia, Canada etc) would potentially prefer a more neutral monetary system.
Bitcoin payments systems standing by ready and able to meet the demand for a neutral and equitable payments system quickly and easily adopted as the legacy petrodollar based system collapses. Any petty legal obstacles what were put there by the now defunct fiat debt slavery monopolist operators would be swiftly removed/ignored. Its a sunny Sunday spring morning of optimism and cherry blossom!
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker 7h
I think the hypothesis is that government will eventually be forced to accept bitcoin if people just start using it for trade everywhere. Of course, they may also try to fight it.
I'm not saying it's likely that bitcoin will ever be a currency accepted by governments, but I'm not ruling out the possibility either.
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