pull down to refresh

Theory: If Monero were to gain adoption on a global scale, it would eventually centralize as running a node would become increasingly difficult (ignoring the issues with hard forks and ASIC resistance).
Bitcoin is not just "Number go Up" (NgU) technology due to being a fixed supply. Bitcoin is the most popular, most decentralized, and most secure blockchain for a reason. Bitcoin being the first cryptocurrency means it has gone through a creation process that cannot be replicated. This path dependence is ultimately what sets Bitcoin apart from any other cryptocurrency competing as a money from being able to replace it. Any cryptocurrency created after Bitcoin, regardless on whether or not it is intentional to compete as a money, will ultimately be forced to compete as a money as its adoption grows and use of its network requires its coin. Since Bitcoin is already the oldest and most widely tested and distributed network, it will always win this competition, as money tends to one.
When it comes to decentralization, Bitcoin again shows its strength by having a low fixed block size and long block time. This is typically modified by other cryptocurrencies trying to copy and attempt to improve on Bitcoin by making larger blocks (or dynamic blocks, in Monero's case) and faster block times (2 minutes for Monero). This is an error because when a network tries to increase throughput or functionality at the base layer, decentralization is sacrificed in that it becomes more difficult over time to run a full node for that network. This is obvious in Ethereum since it is significantly more difficult to run a full node as its adoption grows, and not even an archival node, than Bitcoin. It should be noted that Ethereum also has a dynamic block size, though with different rules around the block size than Monero's.
In order to determine how a cryptocurrency is able to handle being used on a global level, we should approach it from the perspective that it's the only currency that people are willing to transact in, again since money tends to one. There are, of course, optimizations that can be implemented at the base layer to improve scalability, like Schnorr signatures, but ultimately that won't enable global usage at the base layer. The base layer must be as simple as possible so that users are able to validate the blockchain on minimal hardware forever. Bitcoin's main approach to scaling is by utilizing layers, where additional transactions can be accomplished in an upper layer, like Lightning Network. Monero has no upper layers, every user must rely on the base layer for every transaction.
Proponents of Monero will say the most important use case of cryptocurrency is digital cash. While I can completely agree with this, I disagree that privacy must be implemented at the base layer. Scaling in layers is an architecture design that is similar to the internet. Take TCP/IP for example, we use TCP/IP all the time even for encrypted (private) communication, yet TCP/IP itself isn't encrypted. Encryption is handled at a different (application) layer of the networking stack, leaving lower layers as simple as possible to fulfill their function. TCP/IP doesn't need to know anything about instant messaging, browsing websites, checking your email, etc., it only needs to do its simple job.
Adding complexity to the base layer of a blockchain means every node of that network must be able to handle the extra load that the complexity has added at a full global scale. There's an assumption that Bitcoin needs privacy or fungibility at the base layer. Bitcoin implements the bare minimum functionality necessary for settlement and ability for different use-cases to be pushed to different layers. The base layer represents a settlement layer. Multisigs on the base layer have enabled the Lightning Network to provide instant transactions between users with nearly zero fees on a secondary layer that can fallback to the base layer at any time. Regardless of what you think of LN, its devs or the drama, this alone proves the layered approach works.
Bitcoin's base layer processes around 10 times the number of transactions than Monero per day. Bitcoin's blocks also tend to be around 10 times the size as Monero's, while Monero processes 5 blocks on average for every block on Bitcoin. Even with some napkin math, we can see that if Monero's usage were to only double in transactions, its storage would then grow at the same rate as Bitcoin's, while Bitcoin would still process 5 times as many transactions. Again since Monero lacks the ability to scale in layers, its base layer must process every transaction every user wishes to perform.
Now finally let's imagine that somehow Monero were to suddenly overtake Bitcoin and become the only form of money anyone wants to transact in. Every transaction of every user, machine, and program would have to use Monero's base layer, which would have to be validated by every node on the network. When it comes to bandwidth, Monero's 2 minute block times mean every node has to be able to download larger and larger blocks as well. Its dynamic block size will eventually work against the users and favor the miners, as their revenue from fees would be incredibly high. Since the miners would receive more payment in the form of transaction fees, they would have the natural incentive to increase storage and network capacity to run a node to continue mining. However, users would have a harder and harder time validating the chain, and without any incentive, would drop off the network, reducing decentralization. Over time, with this amount of usage at the base layer, only data centers could afford to run a node.

This has been a fun little theory that I thought I would capture in written form for a while. In summary, I think there are four key points I'm trying to get across:
  • The strongest money overtakes weaker money
  • The most basic and constricted the base layer allows for maximum decentralization
  • Scaling is best accomplished in layers
  • Monero fails as a money, has too much complexity at its base layer, and cannot scale to global usage
I've been thinking for a while now that Monero fans are ideologically 90% Bitcoiners. They may just lack the final push to understand what Bitcoin is really trying to accomplish. Hopefully this can help both my understanding of Monero, as I hope to receive some criticism, and Monero's fans understand that they can like the Monero project, but they should probably store their value in Bitcoin if they don't want to have fun staying poor, privately.
Thanks so much for writing this up, critique of Monero is critical to continuing to improve it over time, and is heavily encouraged in the Monero community as well.
As an experienced Monero user and someone focused on privacy as a whole (not just in cryptocurrencies), I'd love to break down a few of the points made here and link to some further resources that have been helpful to me.
Monero has no upper layers, every user must rely on the base layer for every transaction.
While this is true today, it is not true forever, which makes a big difference when comparing something like Bitcoin and Monero's long-term decentralization.
Monero is capable of layer-two networks (even Lightning!) with future protocol changes (some of which are in the works today), and can even be achieved without protocol changes as has been proposed in PayMo:
I know that much of the Monero community likes to tout the functionality of Monero as obviating the need for an L2, but I disagree and think we will want (and then need) an L2 sooner rather than later, even if just for the ephemerality of transactions that it provides, scaling aside.
L2s will be necessary, can be built, and will actually be better because of Monero's privacy guarantees and dynamic block size than in Bitcoin. Much of the privacy flaws and onboarding issues in Lightning are due to the lack of on-chain privacy and block size elasticity, both of which are drastically improved in Monero.
Take TCP/IP for example, we use TCP/IP all the time even for encrypted (private) communication, yet TCP/IP itself isn't encrypted.
TCP/IP is a great example of the issues that occur when a system is not built for privacy and security from the ground up, and instead has to be bolted on higher up in the network stack.
Many of the privacy and security issues we still face today are due to the failings of designing systems and protocol like TCP/IP, HTTP, and email with privacy in mind as a core tenet. If these had privacy built in at the absolute lowest layer, all layers above benefit immensely and do not need to worry about privacy or security nearly as much.
Much of the issues that privacy-preserving networks like Tor, i2p, and Nym are trying to solve are due to the critical flaws in TCP/IP, flaws that could have been prevented had privacy been at the forefront of the protocol's creation.
Adding complexity to the base layer of a blockchain means every node of that network must be able to handle the extra load that the complexity has added at a full global scale.
Adding the minimum necessary complexity to provide two of the core tenets of money, privacy and fungibility, is a much better approach and lets upper layers focus on things like transaction speed, ephemerality, etc. without needing to try and solve privacy or fungibility failings of the base layer.
Privacy in cryptocurrencies is not this horribly inefficient monstrosity that many in the Bitcoin community make it out to be, and is in-fact quite efficient today and improving rapidly.
Using Monero privately is both cheaper and more efficient than Bitcoin:
Regardless of what you think of LN, its devs or the drama, this alone proves the layered approach works.
A layered approach is absolutely the path forward for all cryptocurrencies, as every payment does not need to be preserved for all eternity in a base layer. Even in Monero, I hope the base layer will serve mainly as a settlement layer and high-value layer, and not need to be used for coffee payments etc.
Again since Monero lacks the ability to scale in layers, its base layer must process every transaction every user wishes to perform.
As mentioned above, this isn't actually true -- Monero can scale in layers, it just hasn't been needed (and thus hasn't happened) yet.
Now finally let's imagine that somehow Monero were to suddenly overtake Bitcoin and become the only form of money anyone wants to transact in. Every transaction of every user, machine, and program would have to use Monero's base layer, which would have to be validated by every node on the network.
A few notes here:
  • In this scenario Bitcoin simply couldn't handle the transaction load anyways, so I'm not sure the argument has weight. Bitcoin is already hard-capped on throughput many days, so this nightmare scenario for on-chain usage is somewhat pointless as a comparison.
  • Monero's dynamic block size is not infinite, and has a growth cap of 1.7x per year
  • Monero's dynamic block size is not meant to be an infinite growth method, and is way to handle elastic transaction usage, like seasonal spending around Christmas etc -- it handles short periods of rapid usage that then returns to normal without any issues, but has preventative measures in place to ensure the chain growth YoY is not a major barrier to node accessibility
There is a lot of info on the current and future approach to fees and dynamic block size here, for those interested:
have fun staying poor
I couldn't let this slide, as this is an absolutely abysmal way to end what was a legitimately excellent critique and set of thoughts around Monero. The idea of laughing at people for being poor as some supposed incentive to pull Monero users "over to Bitcoin" is one of the many reasons I find the Bitcoin community at-large repulsive.
One of the many reasons I spend most of my time in the Monero community is that they are not price focused and are seriously laser-focused on building a necessary tool, protecting all user's privacy, and improving the space as a whole.
"Have fun staying poor" is quite possibly the worst and most off-putting meme in the space, and really mars your otherwise excellent post.
Resources
For those who have managed to read this far, here are some great resources I'd recommend you dig into to better understand Monero's approach:
https://localmonero.co/knowledge - A wealth of info on practically all of the design decisions behind Monero, laid out in approachable and non-technical format https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC9Uu5BUxII - A long but very insightful video that walks through the key differences between Bitcoin and Monero with the angle of utility, store of value, etc. in mind.
reply
This is a great response, and thank you for taking the time to do it!
I'm in agreeement with you on just about everything you mention. Just some points to your comment:
I know that much of the Monero community likes to tout the functionality of Monero as obviating the need for an L2, but I disagree and think we will want (and then need) an L2 sooner rather than later, even if just for the ephemerality of transactions that it provides, scaling aside.
Hopefully this doesn't turn into (a) a never-ending dream like Ethereum's PoS or (b) a contentious hard-fork splitting XMR.
In this scenario Bitcoin simply couldn't handle the transaction load anyways, so I'm not sure the argument has weight. Bitcoin is already hard-capped on throughput many days, so this nightmare scenario for on-chain usage is somewhat pointless as a comparison.
Not at the base layer, of course not. However, Bitcoin has already begun scaling in layers and LN could theoretically handle this throughput. Maybe I should have specifically called out that Bitcoin would utilized layered scaling while Monero (currently) couldn't.
I couldn't let this slide, as this is an absolutely abysmal way to end what was a legitimately excellent critique and set of thoughts around Monero. The idea of laughing at people for being poor as some supposed incentive to pull Monero users "over to Bitcoin" is one of the many reasons I find the Bitcoin community at-large repulsive.
You left out the ", privately"! This comes down to fundamentally understanding Bitcoin as a money rather than a technology, which is how I imagine most Monero fans see the two networks. When it comes to storing value for a long period of time, you need to do this in the hardest asset possible, regardless if you think the tech of another asset is better. The harder asset is unquestionably Bitcoin when compared to Monero. If you choose to store your wealth in XMR, you are losing value to Bitcoin over time, simple as that.
reply
If you choose to store your wealth in XMR, you are losing value to Bitcoin over time, simple as that.
The longer the tail emission goes, the less the inflation is. The benefit is security of the network.
Arguably Bitcoin will be much more prone to volatility because the hard cap is unprecedented in the history of money (remember that nobody knows how much gold exists, but we can predict some rate at which it is unearthed).
Manipulation, panic, hoarding is much easier with a hard cap, just from a human psychology perspective. Constant emission is predictable and cozy in comparison.
reply
The benefit is security of the network.
No one can say this with certainty for another decade or so, when we'll start to really find out if the fee market on Bitcoin is enough to make up for a significantly smaller block subsidy.
reply
To play a devils advocate with some of the arguments:
  • Monero could have more layers too, it has some "smart contract" capabilities and it's adding more (see the developments around BTC-XMR atomic swaps)
  • The fact that TCP/IP (and related protocols) aren't encrypted is also the reason why it's so easy for a country to block twitter.com or facebook.com for all of its citizens.
But I agree with your underlying point. If the current BTC blockchain would be twice as big as it is currently, I would probably not be running a node (because 2TB SSD was a bit too expensive to my taste compared to 1TB).
The one perspective that I'm interested in is whether Monero is actually the privacy layer on top of Bitcoin. If we get bi-directional atomic swaps you could easily imagine having a Bitcoin wallet that has a magical button "clean my coins" and it internally swaps for XMR and back and you get coins without KYC. You don't have to care about anything Monero, you can be fully on Bitcoin standard and yet this can easily provide you with privacy.
reply
Not being a dev but familiar with both protocols and communities, I feel they are good observations. Monero community seems to remain principled in its ethos, many goals are shared and I'm fairly convinced that its organic growth has fostered a certain degree of decentralisation.
Call it first mover advantage or a critcal junture of path-dependence, Bitcoin has survived and value grows from its inherent resiliance. Clearly simplicity is key (it is what it is because of what it is) and the success of 'the rest' rests largely on the success of their predecessor. Lightning now seems to be leading, building on top.
Concerns to centrailzation of mining are well-founded and resonate. In terms of fungibility, this is really a non-argument IMO, if sats are stolen, there's no rolling back, no forking, this is the name of the game. We all know. Failing sharp developments in quantum computing (at the practical level) algorithmic protection is far ahead of online banking and ample security. Custodial services will also grow.
When taking into account adoption wth the user, industry, community and population level, Bitcoin is hope and protocols existing further down the block-timescale of Bitcoin may or may not develop and cross-pollinate. Ultimately markets will decide.
Neutrino backends seem to work quite well for db size on LN.
reply
A few counter arguments
  • P2Pool mining requires users to run a node. The bigger the fee market, the more incentive there is to run node/miner.
  • Centralization is arguably a bigger issue in Bitcoin. Mining centralization is more dangerous than node centralization. Chepear to fight centralization buying hard drives than ASICs.
  • I don't care about p2p cash. I care about censorship resistance. The last few weeks have proven that privacy is necessary for such goal.
reply
when a network tries to increase throughput or functionality at the base layer, decentralization is sacrificed in that it becomes more difficult over time to run a full node for that network.
I think you need to elaborate on this point. As-is, you just say it as if it’s fact and move on. What is the reason you believe this? Does the same issue with Ethereum apply to Monero?
Regarding scaling, Monero devs know that simply making bigger blocks doesn’t make it scale. The dynamic blocks is mainly for handling sudden ramp-ups and drop-offs, I think. I really recommend watching this video at 0:06:45 at least so you can hone your argument https://youtu.be/oolq-l1zKJA
Monero lacks the ability to scale in layers
This is not true (even though I’ve heard some misinformed monero maximalists say so). There is actually layer 2 research already complete and it is on the official roadmap to implement a layer 2.
reply
That's an interesting video. I watched the section on scaling and didn't even think that fees would actually go to zero without some kind of miner intervention. What a fun and unique problem Monero has! ;)
reply
That isn’t even correct. Where did you hear that?
Man critiques of monero have to get better…
reply
I was hoping the wink would give it away: I'm joking.
It's a good video, thanks for sharing.
reply
I fully agree with your points.
IMO Monero was an interesting experiment and a technology to explore but we solved its usecase with tumbling/mixing and running lightning through tor.
reply
we solved its usecase with tumbling/mixing and running lightning through tor.
Ignoring that multiple mixers can be "unmixed", do you really think the UX / complexity of these two things is comparable to doing a transaction with Monero? Think about the UX of the receiver and sender.
With Lightning for example, you need to figure out how to get your bitcoin onto the network and then also figure out who will host your channel. If you're not running your own LN node (which most people will not), there is a lot of question marks around what is going on when you use LN.
reply
You are right. I wanted to say that moneros solutions are conceptionally deprecated - not that they are useless right now.
reply
That's why we Bitcoin and not shitcoin key word "shit"...
Every time I use Monero, transaction confirmations seem like they take forever. I am by no means a power user tho…