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Recently, I've been thinking about Grin. If you're a bit new to bitcoin or "crypto" (like since 2021 or 22-ish), you may not be familiar with Grin. And that's essentially why I'm writing. It used to be a thing, now it seems to be nothing much at all.

Quick refresher for those familiar with Grin and intro for those unfamiliar

Grin began to germinate in 2016 and went live in January of 2019. Soon it was labeled "Bitcoin 2.0". It used "Mimblewimble" (there's a term you likely haven't heard in a while) to help give transactions anonymity--like bitcoin, but anonymous bitcoin. The reasons it was called "Bitcoin 2.0":

  • mysterious whitepaper - Aug. 1, 2016 Mimblewimble whitepaper by "Tom Elvis Jedusor" (French for Voldemort, apparently, two Harry Potter allusions)
  • mysterious creator - called "Ignotus Peverell" (Harry Potter allusion) who quickly disappeared, Grin named (after a bank on Harry Potter stories)
  • "fair launch" - Jan. 15, 2019 meaning no pre-mine nonsense, no ICO nonsense, no coins to devs, just PoW
  • economics - hard coded emission of 1 GRIN per second, predictable (diminishing) inflation rate (though emission/inflation was/is stable, there is an infinite supply which, of course, actually differs greatly from bitcoin)

Remember, there were a lot, A LOT, of new cryptocurrencies popping up at that time. Most of them had an ICO attached with them and most of them doled out tons of coins to the founder or devs or backers...just in case they caught fire. Occasionally, one would indeed catch fire at first, and often, these founders and devs would dump and run. The market would crash, everyone would see what had happened, and yet another rug pull would be written into the books.

Grin, with its "fair launch" seemed determined to not go this route. It seemed very cypherpunk and garnered a good amount of support. Evidence that there was a generous amount of excitement at the outset toward Grin came in a surprise gift. During a dev meeting held on chat interface Gitter.im, Grin got a 50 BTC donation donated mid-meeting. It stunned those who were online.

Very few of the coins that started in those years, like only one, got a 50 BTC donation. It actually happened again, that I know of, in Nov. 2019 with a second 50 BTC. Also interesting, the coins came from a very early address, from the actual coinbase of mined coins. In other words, someone from Jan. 2010 donated the coins. This is someone who mined the coins just a couple of weeks after bitcoin's first birthday, let them sit unmoved for nearly 10 years, then moved them to Grin. Some people wondered if it was Satoshi himself.

Essentially, this was a nod of approval by a very early Bitcoiner that Grin was doing the right things in the right way.

Today, Grin is still there, but kind of just there. If you measure in price, which I'm not sure is the best measurement, Grin is flat at best. I'm reminded of the line from "Bright Lights, Big City" where the protagonist says something like he belongs in the "Brotherhood of Unfulfilled Early Promise" (I enjoyed that book, very Hemingway-esque in a 1980s way).

I'll admit, I was a bit of a Grin fan boi at the start and took (too many) notes on early Grin. I toyed with the idea of writing a quasi-history one day. That idea fell by the wayside on the Boulevard of Unfulfilled Early Promise. Maybe some links could be of interest today or some day. Looking over those notes, there are some familiar names listed that would be familiar to bitcoiners.

Note that Gitter.im evidently changed and went to Matrix. Gitter links no longer work and changing to Matrix links is either too tricky for me to figure out or it's impossible altogether. ☹️ The Gitter Grin chat kind of looked like this though.

So, what went wrong?

In my opinion what went wrong with Grin can be summed in these two words:

  1. bitcoin
  2. bickering

Regarding number 1, bitcoin, I think people just tired of the altcoins and the exhausting drama that came with them. People simply returned to bitcoin. This was no fault of Grin, just a reality.

Regarding number 2, bickering, the Bible says, "The root of all kinds of evil is the love of money." Well, after the BTC landfall came to Grin, so did interest in the project. To their credit, the Grin leadership tried to be open and transparent about everything, almost to the point of fault. People could "put in" to be rewarded for their work on the project. For instance, a dev who was building out the code could ask for X amount of BTC to pay for his time. Written in Rust, not many had the skill to code (this was pre-AI). A skilled coder could easily spend his time doing something for real pay, real money. They have families, have bills, and can't be spending hours and days volunteering work. That's fair. But, with all those bitcoins in the cookie jar available, more and more people began asking for X amount of BTC. Then, the judging and in-fighting began. In my notes, note number 10 says Ignotus (the "Satoshi" of Grin) was already in 2017 lamenting having to spend so much time refereeing personal squabbles and less time coding.

The management of the coins reveals another issue: governance. How does a decentralized anything, like Grin, decided who gets the BTC award for their efforts and who doesn't get it. There was an inner circle of a handful who made the yes or no decisions. As you might imagine, feelings got hurt and words got ugly. The leaders, Lehnberg (essentially the "secretary"/admin) and Yeastplume (main coder), in my view, tried to be super patient with hard to deal with people. But, they're human too and at times frustration shown through. I think neither is involved in the coin anymore. Enough is enough.

Maybe it's overreach to say Grin went the way it has due to personal issues. Maybe it's just as much that the hard core cypherpunks and bitcoiners just stopped fooling with other-coins and returned to bitcoin. It's like you've been dating a solid girl next door for a while, but then you go through a phase where you set her aside and date a series of seemingly hot chicks from the city who turn out to really be empty and without any substance and a waste of time and money, and crazy, so you eventually wise up and return to the solid girl and you settle down. Or it's that and the in-fighting drama, which reminds me, "We never really get out of high school."

Lesson for bitcoin?

Avoid the bickering. The altcoiners are super-tribal, bitcoiners seem to be tribalistic too and love the drama in house. For instance, Jameson Lopp's recent X post essentially said the same thing.

The feuding well is deep:

  • ossification vs innovation
  • quantum risk vs quantum fud
  • knots and core (why did the song from the movie "Stepbrothers" just come into my head?)
  • ordinals/inscription spam vs ordinals/inscriptions censorship
  • spend vs hodl
  • ETF is great vs ETF is fiat
  • Saylor is great vs Saylor is terrible

Healthy discussion is good. Silly drama is not (but it's entertaining). Just because someone has a different opinion, it's okay. Keep your eyes on the ball boys and girls.

43 sats \ 1 reply \ @hueso 11 May

GRIN is awesome. No speculation, no ETF, no Saylors, just pure P2P electronic cash. ツ

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I forgot about the ツ which is another reason I like Grin. Grin uses the Tsu, I like the Shi. シ

Details at https://satoshibitcoinconverter.vercel.app/pages/why.html

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347 sats \ 1 reply \ @Murch 11 May

Lots of people were pretty intrigued with the interesting scriptless-scripts design. However, one of the main reasons people seemed to be dissuaded from adopting it was that Grin started with a constant block reward. Every block would get the same number of new coins forever. While that is a disinflationary schedule like Bitcoin’s the high monetary supply inflation was often criticized: 100% inflation in year 2, 50% inflation in year 3, 33% inflation in year 4, etc. It would only drop to 2% inflation in year 51.
Easy to say in hindsight, but I imagine that it could be a contender for a top coin these days, if it had had a supply schedule more similar to Doge coin that had a drastically accelerated halving schedule which put more of the supply into play early on and then hit a fixed tail emission. The tech itself was cool, and the no-premine stance was widely applauded.

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I hear you on this. The 1/second emission forever took me a while to get used to. Not sure I ever did. The Grin argument was that predictability is the key. No one can suddenly go full printer press Keynesian stimulus and flood the supply. True, but that constant drip drip drip every second, forever, has its own effect. Not to mention the psychological effect. People know that "this is how it is and thus is how it will be". With bitcoin there's the psychological that every day we're tightening, it's becoming harder money constantly.

Grin actually had its first big war over this. As I recall, the first fork was one called BitGrin. To be honest, I liked it better in concept. It was exactly Grin but with bitcoins 21M and emission and block rewards. Just Bitcoin with Grin's Mimblewimble.

Of course, it turned out to be a rug though! The main dev (an anon) might have minted an extra 5 billion coins. As I recall he gave some explanation of something. Suddenly disappeared and that was that.

https://cryptopotato.com/another-ico-scam-bitgrin-creator-minted-5-billion-tokens-while-capping-supply-at-21m-researcher-claims/

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Thanks for the history lesson. Good write up.

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124 sats \ 0 replies \ @Murch 11 May

The original idea to structure transaction outputs as elliptic curve points so that they would automatically benefit from transaction cut-through was put forth in a paper called Mimblewimble. Two coins tried to implement the idea, Grin and Beam (IIRC). Much later, Litecoin also adopted the idea for an extension block with different rules than the regular on-chain transactions.

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The dude who coded for Grin (David Burkett, made Grin++ which was a GUI wallet, all others were cypherpunk and difficult CLI wallets) got hand picked by Charlie Lee years back to work on litecoin. Haven't heard anything in forever tho til this.

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145 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby 11 May

Thanks for writing this up. The only times I remember hearing about Grin were because of Mimblewimble, but really I didn't know much about it.

It sounds like some of the problems had more to do with the donated bitcoin than with the actual protocol/coin. Perhaps it is evidence that the Bitcoin genesis is truly hard to duplicate (even if you don't premine and try not to have a governance structure, people are just too aware of the speculative value of new projects to let them grow organically).

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I tend to agree. At first, with no money, it was all cypherpunk purist heaven. Then came the BTC, then in-fighting.

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Bitcoin’s fixed 21M and no central chest is a feature, not a bug.

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Yep, agreed.

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Amusing?

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1 sat \ 0 replies \ @Lux 11 May -11 sats

What are these trust minimised protocols bitcoiners were focused on innovating?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kaimercer 11 May freebie -10 sats

Lurker decloaking on this one because I think the framing slightly undersells the technical lessons.

Grin/MW didn't fail because of bickering — bickering is a symptom of any community big enough to have stakes. It failed because interactive transactions are a UX dealbreaker. Both sides of a Grin tx had to be online and exchange data to construct it. That's fine for a closed group of cypherpunks; it's a wall for anyone who wants "send and forget" semantics. The wallet teams tried Slatepacks, files, async via SBBS — every workaround just shifted the friction without removing it. By the time non-interactive proposals came around, the audience had moved on.

The other quiet killer was supply. "1 GRIN per second forever" is predictable, and predictable matters, but infinite emission interacts very badly with a market that has already learned to price Bitcoin's 21M cap. Even people who liked the privacy properties couldn't get over the inflation curve at scale.

So if there is a lesson for Bitcoin, I'd phrase it less as "avoid bickering" and more as: don't ship a protocol whose default UX is worse than the thing it's trying to replace, no matter how clever the cryptography is. That cuts at a lot of the current ossification-vs-innovation arguments too — every "upgrade" proposal eventually has to survive a UX test, not just a technical one.

(The 50 BTC donation from a 2010 coinbase was wild theatre though. Satoshi or not, the timing was perfect.)

43 sats \ 0 replies \ @SatoshiTrails 12 May -50 sats

The Grin story is a useful reminder that elegant technology and sound money are different problems. MimbleWimble is genuinely clever, but 'clever' doesn't build the social consensus layer that makes something a store of value. Bitcoin's conservatism looks boring until you watch faster-moving projects discover why it exists.